this post was submitted on 05 Jul 2023
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politics

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“Here’s the thing,” Robinson said. “Whether you’re talking about Adolf Hitler, whether you’re talking about Chairman Mao, whether you’re talking about Stalin, whether you’re talking about Pol Pot, whether you’re talking about Castro in Cuba, or whether you’re talking about a dozen other despots all around the globe, it is time for us to get back and start reading some of those quotes.”

This is the Lieutenant Governor of a state (North Carolina) saying we can get gems from the quotes of genocidal maniacs. This is where we are now.

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[–] LegalAction 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

You can learn names and dates of battles etc., but you won't understand the driving forces if all you have is "Nazis are bad."

Nazis were humans, not some kind of mythological monsters. If they could do what they did, you can too. You need to understand why they did what they did, how the ideology motivated them, or compelled them, because those same forces can work on you as well, and sometimes in ways you don't realize.

Primo Levi survived the death camps, and wrote about his experience extensively. Despite being a prisoner, he felt complicit in the Nazi project, just through trying to survive. At one point he recalls being on a work detail, during which he discovered a water pipe that had some water in it. He drank the water, and although he saw another prisoner lusting after the water, he didn't share, because he wanted to survive.

That other man also survived the camps and later found Levi, and asked why he wouldn't share the water. Levi had no answer at that time, but when writing his memoir he said the structure of the camp system was such that it employed even the inmates as agents of their own extermination.

He ended up committing suicide in the 80s.

If you don't understand the psychological and social pressures working on you - which come from everywhere, btw, not just Nazis - you can't fight against them. You will go along to get along.

[–] FlyingSquid 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Why do you need to read Mein Kampf to understand that?

[–] LegalAction -2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

So you know what Hitler actually said? So you don't fall for something like "the Germans didn't really know what was happening"? Yes, they did. It was published, and you can cite chapter and verse.

Same reason to read anything.

[–] FlyingSquid 3 points 2 years ago (2 children)

No, I don't fall for that because I read history books. So I don't have to read Mein Kampf. What's next, making it required reading in schools?

Are you really under the bizarre impression that no one who hasn't read Mein Kampf has any idea of what Nazism was about?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

He really wants you to be reading Mein Kampf. Sounds very suspicious, right? /s

[–] LegalAction -2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's always worth putting your eyes on the primary source yourself. History texts are not without their own agendas. You're familiar with 1984, yes?

[–] FlyingSquid 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Again- should all schoolchildren be reading Mein Kampf so they can understand the horrors of WW2? Or is there another way to do that?

[–] LegalAction -2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I didn't say school children, and I didn't say all. I said it was necessary for anyone studying ww2. Here, that's usually done in university.

[–] FlyingSquid 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Schoolchildren study WW2. My daughter did. Therefore it is necessary for them to read Mein Kampf, correct?

[–] LegalAction 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's functionally impossible to assign whole books to middle schoolers. And don't confuse what you learn in primary education with real study.

[–] FlyingSquid 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

First of all, middle schoolers read whole books all the time. You clearly don't have any kids who are or have been through middle school. Secondly, there's also a thing called high school and they study WW2 during it.

Thirdly, this was what you said initially:

We should be reading them though

I thought we were the party of “banning books is bad”?

Read them with historical context.

You didn't say anything about real study. You just said we should be reading Mein Kampf within historical context. So I'm now confused as to why you don't think school children should be reading Mein Kampf.

[–] Faildini 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

History books are secondary sources. Which are sufficient for the average person studying history. Perhaps even preferable, since they are written with historical context already supplied, although you do also get the inherent bias of the author.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't a place for primary sources like Mein Kampf. Primary sources are the only thing that tells scholars what was happening in history at any given time, and history books can't be written without scholars studying primary sources. So should Mein Kampf be required reading for middle schoolers? Of course not, no one is saying that. But it may absolutely be required for, say, a graduate level course in WWII history.

Blacklisting or stigmatizing a text serves no one except those that want others to remain ignorant.

[–] FlyingSquid 1 points 2 years ago

No one is talking about blacklisting anything, but are you really suggesting there is no stigma to Mein Kampf? Really?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

What bias could there be about Hitler? That he was a bad guy? Are you saying it's wrong to be biased against Hitler?

Historians need to read the primary sources. Like a lot of primary sources. So many primary sources.

But unless you're an historian writing a paper then it's not all that useful. Because most people don't have the time to read so many primary sources to really understand what was happening in a given time period. It's best to read the summary from historians that can spend many years studying just that one narrow time period. It's feasible for them to read a broad selection of primary source from that time period. It's not feasible for most people to do that.

If you're picking just a few primary sources here and there and thinking you understand what was happening you're going to have view of history that's biased by the very small selection of primary sources that you've read. Remember that in the past people lied just as often as they do now. If you pick a few primary sources, how do you know if the ones you selected aren't just straight up lying?

[–] pinkdrunkenelephants 2 points 2 years ago

You don't actually need to read Mein Kampf to understand the driving forces of Nazism back then and the fascism we face today. Actually the underlying forces nowadays are too different for Mein Kampf to even be relevant. History doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes.