95
Andrew Tate is a symptom, not the problem’: why young men are turning against feminism
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2024
95 points (90.6% liked)
Men's Liberation
1845 readers
1 users here now
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
- No low effort comments
- No personal attacks
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Populism benefits from new media since it offers easy solutions. While at same time it takes time for society to develop new rules and individuals to learn to handle new media. More complex ideas also need more time to be translated in a way relatable and entertaining to new audience.
Why men are seemingly more succeptable to the rightwing propaganda than women? Maybe because rightwing ideology has rather little to offer women even on populist level.
But than again you don't seem to be interested in engaging with my arguments. So I will stop waisting my time.
What is this argument? I'm trying to understand. Here you're not giving an argument though, merely an analysis. You don't say anything about what's possible about the problem. Except maybe explaining more and better then?
Men have nothing to win out of the Conservative ideology btw. It's very harmful to them. Both physically and psychologically. But people don't choose an ideology after a cost/benefit analysis anyway.
Last time: rightwing populism offers easy solutions to complex problems of modern world ( like for example gender: conservatives say there are two and don't bother thinking more about that topic). Modern media allows for easy spread of populism ( algorithms pushing media that creates engagement and creating information bubbles). The right wing populism offers men a clear role and place in society. Right wing populism also offers a clear role for women in society, but it's almost as bad as a deal as immigrants get. Progressive and feminism also offers solutions to modern problem, but they are more complex. ( For example a more complex understanding of what gender ist). Complex ideas are more difficult to sell.
If you feel like engaging with my analysis/argument/greating card what ever you call it, you are welcome otherwise have a nice day.
Now that's where we disagree, unless there are things you didn't say: progressives and feminism don't offer solutions to modern problems IMO.
And that's what I'm basically saying and asking you from the beginning. If there are solutions proposed, what are they?
Dude I literally gave you an example. I obviously can't retell you whole feminist and other progressive theories and what they offer as solutions to each one of the problems we are facing in moder world.
My example was gender issues:
conservatives - there are two and don't think more about it, you feel like you don't fit, we teach to ignore feelings anyway.
progressive - offer a complex ever evolving understanding of gender as combination of culture and biology.
And that's true for a lot of topics.
One is easily digestible the other takes time to understand.
I understand this very well, but that's not my question. This is in fact irrelevant to the subject here. I'm not asking you about the rights minorities should get. I'm asking you about the cis-heterosexual men and women.
I'm not asking about theoretical or abstract things. I'm asking a simple question.
If your answer is that it is too complex, then you now know what the problem is. And that's exactly the problem I'm referring to.
If you can't understand that, then the problem doesn't come from the people who don't understand your complex theories.
Until you realize that you are not asking simple questions, you will never understand why simple answers don't work. The answer will always be complex, so it comes down to people being able to explain complex concepts in an entertaining and understandable manner, where we come back to the point I was making the whole time.
At least you almost understood me at the end. It's something.
Thank you for proving my point: I ask a simple question, and you hide behind arrogance and disdain, abandoning me with no answer. This is precisely what I was saying.
Sure, everyone is free to chose to be ignorant. Nothing I can do about it. But it's sure funny that after days talking with me - that is your take away.
You know what's funny? I can say exactly the same about you. I think you forgot what the conversation was even about.
If you feel like it sure. But than again I spend quite some time trying to explain my point and you spend that time not engaging with what I say. You think you are asking a simple question and that progressives have nothing to offer as a solution. But when people try to explain to you that it's not that simple and progressives have indeed solutions to offer, but those are complex - you just ignore everything.
But than what are you doing here if you think progressives have nothing to offer for men? Seems like you are wasting your time here.
You are twisting my words. I understand what you're saying. But you refuse to understand what I am saying. Just because I don't say "yes you are right and I am wrong" doesn't mean I don't understand you. You're repeating yourself since the beginning.
But the best: you repeat ad nauseam how the solutions exist but are complex, yet you refuse to even try to give the beginning of one to the question I ask. With all the messages spent repeating how complex it is, you could at least have the beginning of something tangible.
I didn't say you don't understand, I said you don't engage. Thanks for illustrating.