this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2024
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"Noooo, us? No, we would NEVER do a genocide! Here, look at these testimonies from OUR experts! Ignore the UN, Amnesty, WHO, B'Tselem, Doctors Without Borders, and especially the PRCS" (i.imgflip.com)
submitted 9 months ago by snek to c/politicalmemes
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[–] snek 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

They shouldn't have killed any civilians, but I understand why they'd attack an illegal settlement right outside their open air prison.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 9 months ago (2 children)
[–] snek 5 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (2 children)

Despite it being "lovely", it's still on stolen Palestinian land, hence illegal.

Edit:

I read further (from the same link)

Be’eri was well known for its pro-peace sympathies: It had a special fund to give financial help to Gazans who came to the kibbutz on work permits, and kibbutzniks would often volunteer to drive sick Palestinians to an oncology center in southern Israel

That's great though, I respect that. That changes my view on that kibbutz. I don't agree with Hamas' blanket statements and generalization, and have been critical of them since I was first aware of their existence and lost many friends over it.

Still, I understand why Gazans are angry at them -- Palestinians shouldn't have to live on handouts of good Israelis... it's the same way I understand why there are attacks on white farms in South Africa. What they did is wrong, this is an explanation as to why, not whether or not it was wrong. It helps to form an understanding of why 75 years of apartheid and radicalization can drive people over the edge.

In the end, when this all started, some Hamas at least freed numerous hostages for humanitarian reasons. They are not all bad. Some of them are genuinely just resistance fighters and don't want to do bad things and even have conflicts with other members who do. The same goes for the IDF (recommending basically every video produced by Breaking the Silence).

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago (2 children)

It's been Israeli since 1948. It's not an illegal settlement under international law.

[–] snek 4 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

In 1946 actually.

PS: please see my edit on the comment on your link! thanks.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

In 1946 actually.

Yes, but Israel wasn't formally declared until '48.

[–] snek 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

And what exactly happened between 1946-1948?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 9 months ago (1 children)

And what exactly happened between 1946-1948?

A lot of ethnic violence? Do you want me to start citing examples in '46-'48 of Jews being beaten to death? I presume you are already aware of the reverse being performed on Palestinian Arabs.

[–] snek 0 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

So what's the relevance of the settlement being founded in 1946?

Funny how the natives of an area resist colonization.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

So ethnic cleansing is okay regardless of how long it's been or how internationally recognized a settlement is?

You can't justify attacks against a settlement indefinitely because at one point other people lived there.

[–] HappycamperNZ 0 points 9 months ago

Its almost like they went to war with their allies and lost territory when they lost or something.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Still, I understand why Gazans are angry at them – Palestinians shouldn’t have to live on handouts of good Israelis… it’s the same way I understand why there are attacks on white farms in South Africa. What they did is wrong, this is an explanation as to why, not whether or not it was wrong. It helps to form an understanding of why 75 years of apartheid and radicalization can drive people over the edge.

That doesn't change that Hamas's goals and methods are genocidal in all but success rate. "Well, they were oppressed for so long" might be a 'why', but it's hardly a 'why' worth mentioning; no more than the history of oppression of the Jews is worth mentioning when discussing the ongoing genocide of Palestinians. Ultimately, there is only one answer worth giving - that genocide is unacceptable, and whichever side is currently attempting it (Israel, in this case) must be punished, and the side that was recently attempting it (Hamas) must not be justified or lionized.

In the end, when this all started, some Hamas at least freed numerous hostages for humanitarian reasons. They are not all bad. Some of them are genuinely just resistance fighters and don’t want to do bad things and even have conflicts with other members who do. The same goes for the IDF (recommending basically every video produced by Breaking the Silence).

Propaganda moves and negotiations for hostage swaps aren't signs of being 'not all bad' and not wanting to 'do bad things'. Fuck man, every terrorist group of note in history makes those propaganda moves - terrorist states like Israel included.

[–] snek 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Neither Hamas' goals nor their methods are "genocidal". They don't call for the eradication of Jewish people. You can argue that if these massacres like October 7th continue, you can have a case for genocide. But now? Nah.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

Neither Hamas’ goals nor their methods are “genocidal”.

Wholesale slaughter of civilians based on ethnicity and targeting of civilians centers based on the predominant ethnicity isn't genocidal in method?

What would it take, theoretically, to convince you that Hamas's goals remain genocidal? Other, of course, than their murderous actions?

They don’t call for the eradication of Jewish people.

I can find a great deal to dispute this.

You can argue that if these massacres like October 7th continue, you can have a case for genocide.

Hence my statement that it wasn't genocidal "Only for lack of success."

This isn't the first such attack. This isn't even the second or the third. This is just the most successful one so far.

[–] snek 2 points 9 months ago (1 children)

I can find a great deal to dispute this.

Cool, show me where in their latest charter? Or examples from its leaders?

[–] [email protected] -4 points 9 months ago (1 children)

Or examples from its leaders?

How many will it take for you to concede the point? Just so I know when to stop collecting.

[–] snek 1 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago) (1 children)

I mean, enough to show that they are unhinged and with no criticism or action coming towards them from Hamas?

I guess hold them up to the standard similar to or a hit below that of demonstrating that Israel is outspoken about its genocidal intent. Israel is pretty open about it so it might be hard to demonstrate it that clearly as is the case with Israel lol

[–] [email protected] 3 points 9 months ago (1 children)

"We are looking forward to two important things, which are within sight: The first is the cleansing of Palestine of the filth of the Jews, and their uprooting from it, Allah willing. This is within sight. Four years, my brothers... By 2022, we will be rid of them... The second thing is the establishment of the Caliphate, after the nation has been healed of its cancer – the Jews – Allah willing...

"It is unacceptable that the Jews control some of the Arab states – their regimes, their armies, and their security agencies – while the peoples remain oppressed. Oh peoples of the Arab and Islamic nation, oh Palestinian people, you possess a concealed power that you can detonate in the faces of the Jews and the hypocrites. We expect another Arab Spring from you, with new characteristics – a second Arab Spring, which will focus on the Al-Aqsa Mosque, Allah willing. We are your embers and your fuel, Allah willing."

  • Fathi Hamad, high ranking member of Hamas's political bureau, 2018

"There was a series of 120 deportations of Jews from Europe. This was because they betrayed the people among whom they lived, and worked against the interests of the societies that sheltered them. They betrayed those societies, in which they lived as spies. For example, they spied against the Persians for the Byzantines. These [Jewish] groups corrupted the societies in which they lived through usury, the worship of money, extreme miserliness, and bribery. Those nations considered them to be anti-Christian. The [Jews] lived in Europe according to the principle of rejection of non-Jews, whom they call Gentiles. They embraced the notion of the Jews being the victims throughout history, in order to take over Palestine."

  • Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, one of the founders of Hamas,, 2017

“[R]emoving the Jews from the land they occupied in 1948 is an immutable principle because it appears in the Book of Allah.”

  • Mahmoud Al-Zahhar, one of the founders of Hamas,, 2018

"If we look back at history, we see that [the Jews] were abhorred in the time of Nebuchadnezzar. This is also true of the times of the Assyrians, the Romans, and the Prophet Muhammad. They betrayed him. They were treacherous against him, and he expelled them from the Arabian Peninsula. Even Hitler hated them, loathed them, and got rid of them. However, everything people say about massacres and Holocaust – these are all lies. Hitler may have hated them, but it was because of their deeds and crimes. Hitler was no less of a criminal than them."

  • Marwan Abu Ras, Hamas MP, 2019

"Those [cowards] who quake with fear, those who cooperate and collaborate [with Israel], those who normalize relations with the occupation will be gathered with the apes and pigs in the Hellfire. Do you know who the apes and pigs are? They are the Jews who Allah transformed into apes and pigs."

  • Ismail Radwan, Hamas Minister of Religious Endowments, 2018

“Over is the time Hamas spent discussing recognizing Israel. Now Hamas will discuss when we will wipe out Israel,”

  • Yahya Sinwar, leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip

When Sinwar would tell him [Ehud Yaari, a fellow of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, who interviewed Sinwar in prison four times] Israel must be destroyed and insist there was no place for Jewish people in Palestine, "he would joke, 'Maybe we'll make an exception of you'".

“We cannot, in exchange for money or projects, give up Palestine and our weapons. We will not give up the resistance... We will not recognize Israel, Palestine must stretch from the [Jordan] River to the [Mediterranean] Sea.”

Ismail Haniyeh, current leader/chairman of Hamas, in 2020

“[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about.” Al-Regeb also prayed for the ability to “get to the necks of the Jews.”

Hamad Al-Regeb, an official Sheikh (elder official) of Hamas, 2023

“Therefore, we are convinced that if a total conflict begins, the airspace and seaports of this entity will be shut down, and they will not be able to live without electricity, water, and communications.”

Saleh Al-Arouri, now-deceased Deputy Chairman of Hamas, 2023

I literally can't go on because I'm running up against the word count limit at this point, but I hope this gives you something of an idea of what I mean.

[–] snek 2 points 9 months ago

Yeah fair enough.

[–] Linkerbaan 3 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)