this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2024
1117 points (98.7% liked)

News

23650 readers
2412 users here now

Welcome to the News community!

Rules:

1. Be civil


Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.


2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.


Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.


Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.


5. Only recent news is allowed.


Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.


6. All posts must be news articles.


No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.


7. No duplicate posts.


If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.


8. Misinformation is prohibited.


Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.


9. No link shorteners.


The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.


10. Don't copy entire article in your post body


For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 

A Mississippi man accused of destroying a statue of a pagan idol at Iowa’s state Capitol is now being charged with a hate crime.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 5 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Different words. Quoth Article 137(7) of the Weimar constitution (one of the paragraphs that are part of the current constitution):

Den Religionsgesellschaften werden die Vereinigungen gleichgestellt, die sich die gemeinschaftliche Pflege einer Weltanschauung zur Aufgabe machen.

Associations whose purpose is the communal cultivation of a world view shall be treated in the same way as religious societies.

Meaning they're seen as different in some sense, but as they're 100% equal under the law courts never bother to make judgements on whether something is the one or the other. Courts are really good at avoiding deciding something if they don't absolutely have to. In laws you always see them mentioned side by side, e.g. §166 StGB:

(1) Anyone who publicly insults the content of a religious or world-view conviction of others or disseminates such content (Section 11 (3)) in a way that is likely to disturb public peace shall be liable to a custodial sentence not exceeding three years or to a monetary penalty.

(2) Likewise, anyone who publicly or by disseminating content (Section 11 (3)) insults a church or other religious or world-view association existing in Germany, its institutions or customs in a manner that is likely to disturb public peace shall be liable to a custodial sentence of up to three years or a monetary penalty.

That law is age-old, dating back to after the 30 year war to keep Lutherans and Catholics from inciting wars against each other. And just for the record yes you can call the Catholic Church a child fucker cult: Courts ruled that it's not that kind of statement which disturbs the public peace, priests fucking children and the church sweeping it under the carpet is what disturbs it. The statement may be pointed but it's still a statement of fact, not an insult.

OTOH you won't see Churches over here saying things like "atheists are inherently amoral", that very much is an insult. Or the good ole Lutheran line of "Catholics are Idolaters" -- Lutheran theology still says that they are, but, hey, you don't have to say it out loud, least of all using fighting words.


The term "world view" itself has quite precise philosophical meaning, English wikipedia does a half-assed job of explaining it. The German article has a way better opening definition:

Today, a world view is primarily understood to be the totality of personal values, ideas and perspectives based on knowledge, tradition, experience and feelings, which relate to the interpretation of the world, the role of the individual in it, the view of society and, to some extent, the meaning of life.

So philosophically speaking religions are actually a subset of world-views and the question of "is this a religion" is rather meaningless to the philosopher -- they'd rather use terms such as "theological world-view" or such. For the established religions, though, the term is very important and noone wants to rock a boat that doesn't need rocking.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Thank you for the detailed and insightful response. That's such a fair and egalitarian stance. I wonder why other countries haven't adopted similar? Or if it's that the church in Germany doesn't hold as much political power as other places.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (1 children)

Germany isn't even secular as such, there's a gazillion state churches and world view organisation, organised under public law and having privileges such as sitting on the public TV councils, and even writing their own employment laws. You do have to be compatible with humanism, though, and not in opposition to the free and democratic basic order.

From the reformation to the age of the enlightenment there were first wars, then people could be cast out of a lord's territory if they were of the "wrong" creed -- which was a huge win in terms of religious freedom, before that they often had to face some sort of inquisition.

Catholic areas were of course catholic, in Protestant areas multiple new creeds developed, some accepted by the state, some not so much. Actual religious freedom was introduced 1848, simultaneously the authority to marry was taken away from the churches and put into state hands. Same thing with schools, though confessions still can (and do) have private schools, but it's all under state oversight.

That whole approach then got firmed up a bit in the Weimar constitution, put into its current organisational form, then the Nazis happened, and then it got firmed up even more in the sense that the state now is now not neutral but actively humanist. (Even if it's often outsourced to specifically the EKD as they are very good at not arguing from theological principles but speak plain ethics. In practice no law concerning say stem cell research passes without their ok as their reasoning always demands respect) And this humanist orientation of the state also leads to decisions that I think look rather strange from an outside POV, such as at-will abortions not being legal, but decriminalised. The constitutional court really was shouting "you can't just willy-nilly declare a developing human to not be human" from the rooftops, reminding politicians of the state's duty to protect life, while also saying "you don't have to implement that protection with criminal punishment that'd probably be counter-productive anyway, use social and welfare means".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

This is so so interesting! Especially the concept of religions and world views needing to be compatible with humanism, and that the Protestant Church is able to provide ethical insight that's not pure religiosity but properly reasoned and considered. My biggest question mark of this morning was what would happen if someone tried to found a religion based on hatred, or organize a group sharing the same hateful world view, by tossing around "facts" (the statistics that are often cherry picked, removed from context, and thrown around to justify racism for example). I imagined that Germany would be particularly sensitive to that possibility but wasn't sure how it might be handled- you cleared it up beautifully.

Are you in a line of work or study surrounding this history and principles? Or is the average German citizen this knowledgable on the subject?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 10 months ago

Are you in a line of work or study surrounding this history and principles? Or is the average German citizen this knowledgable on the subject?

No and no. Our level of civics education all in all isn't terrible but I do have more of an interest than most, I'd say.