this post was submitted on 31 Dec 2023
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Why do so many evangelical Christians support former President Donald Trump despite his decades of documented ungodly behavior?

An in-depth report from The Economist shows that it has a simple explanation: They believe that God personally appointed him to rule the United States.

In fact, the report cites a survey conducted by Denison University political scientist Paul Djupe that around 30 percent of Americans believe Trump "was anointed by God to become president."

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Josphius

Josephus is awesome, but he isn't a particularly trustworthy source because his motivation was highly political (get respect from Romans and Greeks for his people), so he often exaggerates and distorts the truth. He certainly wouldn't mention something that wouldn't fit his narrative.

So he's a great resource, just a little unreliable, but there's really no other options.

The text doesn't say that

Let's look at the text then. I'll include the relevant portions from each of the four gospels:

Matthew 21:12-13:

And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

Mark 11:15-18:

And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple.

And he was teaching them and saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”

And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and were seeking a way to destroy him, for they feared him, because all the crowd was astonished at his teaching.

Luke 19:45-48:

And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold,

saying to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of robbers.”

And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people were seeking to destroy him,

but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people were hanging on his words.

John 2:14-16:

In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there.

And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.

And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; do not make my Father's house a house of trade.”

They're remarkably similar accounts, and in each he points out that the issue is that they're making the temple a house of robbers (i.e. they're profiting from something that should be a gift to God). And it wasn't just the moneychangers, but the people selling sacrificial animals as well, the probably is buying and selling stuff in the temple, not donations to Rome.

To me that's pretty clear, Jesus cared far more about the people trading in the temple than whoever's face was on the money. These were in the original accounts (as much as the current Bible is "original"), not a fabrication 1700 years later.

And yeah, using the money is fine, Jesus didn't seem to have an issue with the money itself, he just had an issue with profiteering from items used in temple ceremonies within the temple complex itself.

We also know he was funneling money to the Jerusalem community.

Why not click the links?

Regardless, I mostly made my point. For the "reap what you sow" message, my personal opinion is that it isn't literal. I don't think he's saying they'll get wealthy with worldly money if they donate money (i.e. charity as an investment), but that they'll receive spiritual blessings for putting others ahead of themselves (i.e. if you sow love, you'll reap love).

The reason for moving money to Jerusalem was likely two-fold, a famine in Egypt likely impacted Judea more than other regions, and Paul wasn't well liked in Jerusalem, so he worked extra hard to get money to those suffering in Jerusalem to help solve both problems. He was a prominent figure in the church, hence why repairing that relationship is important. That sounds like a pretty reasonable explanation, but we obviously have limited information here. He likely also raised money for local congregations, but there wouldn't be as much of a point to dwelling on that in a letter that's intended to build faith.

No one would ever lie

Well, given that he's dead and we don't have many accounts of his life, I can't really speak to his trustworthiness. There are people I absolutely trust to use money appropriately, and there are those I don't. Supposedly he gained the trust of certain groups and not others. We don't know how he used the money, we just know he thanked people for donations, at least in certain cases.

So any statements about his character are going to be baseless.

[–] afraid_of_zombies 1 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Right so where does it say what you said? It doesn't. Your preacher made it up. You can infer that if you want but you can infer anything if you try hard enough. Since we only have one base account we can only use that and at no point is there a mention of making money being the issue.

They’re remarkably similar accounts,

That tends to happen when people copy each other. Like how Bruce Wayne was an orphan in my different media. John copied off the three others, Luke off Matthew, and Matthew off Mark. So of course if Mark had it the other ones would. Where Mark got it is a muddy. Chances are he made it up based on the news of the Temple's destruction in 70AD.

Why not click the links?

I don't enable human intellectual laziness.

Regardless, I mostly made my point. For the “reap what you sow” message, my personal opinion is that it isn’t literal. I don’t think he’s saying they’ll get wealthy with worldly money if they donate money (i.e. charity as an investment), but that they’ll receive spiritual blessings for putting others ahead of themselves (i.e. if you sow love, you’ll reap love).

Ok? I don't care. It doesn't change the fact that he was telling people to give him all their money.

The reason for moving money to Jerusalem was likely two-fold, a famine in Egypt likely impacted Judea more than other regions, and Paul wasn’t well liked in Jerusalem, so he worked extra hard to get money to those suffering in Jerusalem to help solve both problems. He was a prominent figure in the church, hence why repairing that relationship is important. That sounds like a pretty reasonable explanation, but we obviously have limited information here. He likely also raised money for local congregations, but there wouldn’t be as much of a point to dwelling on that in a letter that’s intended to build faith.

And? He bribed people to like him. Not really an original idea.

Well, given that he’s dead and we don’t have many accounts of his life, I can’t really speak to his trustworthiness. There are people I absolutely trust to use money appropriately, and there are those I don’t. Supposedly he gained the trust of certain groups and not others. We don’t know how he used the money, we just know he thanked people for donations, at least in certain cases.

He said that he was not lying between 5-10 times in "his" 13 letters. If you want to trust a person who is often telling you how trustworthy they are, instead of showing it, be my guest. Me personally I know what projection is, I know we always catch the anti-gay politician with a rent-a-boy and the guy who constantly tells me how I should trust him is the one I shouldn't.

Ever notice how in all his letters when he talks about himself he is always the badass and the victim at the same time? Might want to read up on grandiose victimhood and how common it is with people who have Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 10 months ago

He bribed people to like him

That's certainly one take. How about I provide another. Let's say I offend you and I work hard to make it up to you to show that I'm genuinely sorry and want to make restitution. Is that also bribery? No, it's a demonstration of genuine care for you.

Couldn't that also be an explanation for Paul's actions here?

He said he was not lying

You'll have to point out the passages.

Here's one that appears clear (2 Corinthians 12:16, from one scholars agree that he wrote):

Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!

If we read the surrounding context, it doesn't sound like someone who is manipulative (14-19):

Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less?

Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!

Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you?

I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the same footsteps by the same Spirit?

Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? We have been speaking in the sight of God as those in Christ; and everything we do, dear friends, is for your strengthening.

Yeah, he throws a bit of a fit before this point, but he also points out that he didn't take money from them and he doesn't intend to, because he cares more about their well-being than money. His goal here seems to be to compare himself to other "false Apostles", who presumably were trying to compete with his authority.

Now, I don't personally think this is a very effective way to go about it, but we also don't know what those "false Apostles" (2 Cor. 11:13) were doing. Maybe they were extorting people and Paul wanted to show that he didn't do anything like that, so he's different. Idk, maybe this was a legitimate way to clarify things and not a weird humblebrag-fest. Regardless, what I see is a message of love, with some weird self-aggrandizement that may or may not be explained if we had more context.