this post was submitted on 26 Dec 2023
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It's dystopian that so many people don't have unlimited sick time.
Disagree. Any form of "unlimited" time off gets heavy scrutiny. I'd rather have a generous PTO policy than an unlimited one.
That said, it's distopian that anyone needs to send proof of being sick. That's a symptom of a really toxic work culture.
Maybe I've been lucky but in 10+ years of unlimited sick time, I've never been questioned about sick days.
Vacation time I think needs a minimum if you're going to do unlimited, otherwise people aren't sure what to take and may take less.
The worst policy I ever worked under was "limited sick days. Unused sick days get paid out as a bonus at the end of the year". So everyone came in sick to get that sweet two weeks pay at the end of the year.
Yeah, that's awful.
I much prefer a fixed amount of PTO to "unlimited" mostly because the culture of companies that offer unlimited seem to discourage actually taking time off, which can lead to burnout. Obviously every company is different, but I'd much rather have a decent fixed amount of time off vs something where I'd feel guilty for abusing it. I currently get like 3.5 weeks, which is pretty decent for my field, and I'll get a bump to 4.5 weeks in a couple years.
I've heard tale of places that add the unused sick days to your retirement
There's no such thing as unlimited time off.
There are places that state they have "unlimited vacations" but I expect they will fire you if you take too many days off. A friend of mine has all the Fridays in the year off, plus the regular vacations.
Then it's not unlimited and I'd rather just know how much time I can take off, than wondering if I'm skirting the limits.
I totally agree that it's better to know in advance. But that's part of the strategy it seems, you're too afraid to push it, so you get too few
I don't think a place like that exists I think OP's friend is just lying to them to excuse why they got fired. I've never heard of a company with unlimited holidays but then fire somebody for taking them.
Nah, ey were not fired (yet?) and I also worked there before unlimited vacations became a thing, so I kinda think they may went that way. As was said somewhere around this comment with unlim you can guilt/fear your employees into working more and then not pay them unspent days.
Edit: clarity
Where is this? What is the point in guilt in your employees to work in longer hours when you can just contract them to work longer hours perfectly legally?
I think the benefits to the company of "unlimited time off" are
Many companies don't do that even with fixed time off: see every company I ever worked at.
Apparently this varies by state! https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/pto-payout-laws-by-state/
Interesting! I grew up in WA and currently live in UT, and neither require it, though my dad had his paid out when he retired (company policy).
Exactly
Also, I guess there are some fine print conditions like you get less bonuses if you're not working enough, or you're only eligible after working for some time. But that details I don't know
In a third world, not EU or US, surely. The contracts and obligations are treated differently there
I don't know where these places are but pretty much every company will have a minimum number of hours you need to work a year (they usually define this as the maximum number of holidays you can take a year rather than the number of days you actually have to work, but it works out the same way) and they'll tell you what those are, they can't expect you to just guess.
For example i can take a maximum of 21 holiday days a year + however many days I am sick + national holidays.
Maybe although I am sure they have a very sketchy contract as they don't adhere to regulations anyway
This depends entirely on where the world they are
There is if you work at a decent place - or in a decent country.
There is nowhere in the world that has it forever time off. You have a certain number of days you can take but there is no such thing as you can just take whatever you want. That doesn't exist anywhere on earth. Do you think it does please link me to it.
It is very common for places to offer unlimited time off. They don't mean literally you can take every day off and still get paid. Typically you still need to get your job done.
Similar to how many jobs have free snacks in the kitchen, but if you went and ate everything in there you'd probably get a talking to. Or most jobs let you go to the bathroom whenever you need, but if you sat on the shitter all day every day it would be a problem.
This kind of thing involvea people, not a video game or genie you can trick.
Right. Those with unlimited PTO take off only what they need, and not the strict number they get. Those with a set amount end up finding time to take off. It’s why companies moved over to “unlimited”. That, and the fact they don’t need to pay out your vacation when you leave.
No, they usually avoid taking time off even if they need it, because they get guilted into thinking it wouldn't be approved or something, or that they'd be passed up for a promotion. Employers do it because it's better for the company, not for the individual.
Unlimited? F'realz?
Don't know where you live but in the Netherlands you just stay home when you're sick, that's it.
I believe after two weeks you need a doctor's note.
And then you'll get paid for up to two years of illness, after which you can apply with the government for further assistance.
So not unlimited, but quite long still.
https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/ziekteverzuim-van-het-werk/regels-en-verplichtingen-bij-ziekte
In the US if you're sick they can just fire you the first day you're gone. It's great, I hardly know what to do with all this freedumb I have.
Most jobs aren't going to do that. They can technically fire you whenever they want, since it's considered at-will employment, but the cost of finding and training a replacement usually lends some stability, even for low-level jobs.
I understand U.S. system is VERY VERY fucked up, three day sick leave is no where close to enough; but I am quite confused of why people only need a doctor's note after two weeks.
It seems quite reasonable if one haven't recovered for a week (or been very sick for more than 3 days), it is best for them to see a doctor, especially with free health care in the Netherlands.
It's completely dependent on the job, and that's a problem. Good jobs offer ample time off, bad jobs offer the bare legal minimum. Unfortunately the legal minimum is really oppressive and causes a lot of people to go into work sick, getting everyone else sick in the process.
Edit: Sorry about this comment, it's pretty useless, I just had time to kill waiting for my next flight. Reads like a fictional dystopian exaggeration, but it was my reality and continues to be reality for many others, unfortunately. TL;DR - anecdotes outlining how US working conditions can be brutally unforgiving, especially in the restaurant industry.
There's 3 days sick leave in the US? When I was still living there, I got my 2nd write-up (3rd = termination) for not coming to work because I needed to go to the ER for an overdose. Side note: caffeine powder is way cheaper than coffee, but if you're too broke to afford coffee, you're too broke to afford a milligram scale reliable and accurate enough to prevent accidental overdose.
After breaking my 30+ day streak of 12-15 hour shifts (about 90-100 hours per week, was normally only 85 or so), I came back to work the next day with a doctor's note, and my boss said "I don't think you're lying to me..." followed by 10 very long seconds of suspicious squinting and staring me down, "... But yesterday was Saturday, so I'm going to need to write you up". You see, it was explicitly forbidden to call in sick on a Friday, Saturday, or Sunday.
Don't let your loved ones work in restaurants, ESPECIALLY in the kitchen. I unfortunately couldn't quit because I had no days off to apply for other jobs, and missing out on even one day of pay was the difference between covering bills AND food, or having to steal food to avoid homelessness. I legitimately considered choosing to be homeless temporarily as a way out, because I pretty much lived at work anyway, I only ever slept at the apartment. Granted, my situation was particularly bad because they were actually stealing 50% of my earned wages (~$8300 over 10 months, which I eventually got back after threats of litigation).
I googled the law for several supposedly "progressive" state:
source:
Here's the fun part: you only get that if you work somewhere that obeys labor laws! Many (most?) restaurants pretend like they don't exist at all. I've worked at a place that would occasionally (3 times in the year and a half I worked there) fire a chef just after the pay-cycle without saying a word, so the chef works the next 2 weeks up until payday, asks "where's my paycheck" and the boss says "you don't get one you were fired last week".
On a chef's salary, that has potential to put them and their family on the streets.
The fun part is also with "at-will" employment (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment), which is effective for most employment in the U.S.
You can have as much TPO and sick day as you want, yet nothing stops your employer firing you because you used your TPO or sick day.
So basically they are meaningless...
I think the idea is that you're actually sick for a week, not "sick". And can't show them anything until you're better. If you've ever been that sick, you know you can barely get out of bed to go to the bathroom.
I've had unlimited sick time via "if you're not well stay home" for like ten years. One job had limited vacation time (15 days to start that went up to 25 as you gained seniority), but the others has unlimited vacation time, too.
These have been small/medium startups.
Very much unrelated to this post