this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2023
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I just got up from conversation with a couple of older black men, that I said "well I got to go back to work and start cracking the whip." And it occurred to me then that it was probably a really insensitive stupid thing to say.

Sadly, it hadn't occurred to me until it's already said.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 11 months ago (4 children)

The two that really make me wince are "Indian giver" and the related "Indian summer" and of course calling hooch "firewater" isn't great either.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I always thought “Indian summer” sounded very poetic, maybe related to the climate of the Indian subcontinent.

But it’s just garden variety American racism?
That’s so disappointing!

Does anyone know more about the etymology?

[–] LeftRedditOnJul1 20 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Indian summer (n.)

"spell of warm, dry, hazy weather after the first frost" (happening anywhere from mid-September to nearly December, according to location), 1774, North American English (also used in eastern Canada), perhaps so called because it was first noted in regions then still inhabited by Indians, in the upper Mississippi valley west of the Appalachians, or because the Indians first described it to the Europeans. No evidence connects it with the color of fall leaves, or to a season of renewed Indian attacks on settlements due to renewed warm weather (a widespread explanation dating at least to the 1820s).

Source: Etymonline

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago

That’s not so bad!

I followed up the etymology of “zipper head” above so I was prepared for waaaaaaaaay worse.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

That's so interesting. Like @vzq I had the wrong sense of the word "Indian" - I thought it was something the British came up with after they colonized India.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 11 months ago

Well, and specifically, it's related to the concept of an Indian giver: The warm weather is "taken back" and impermanent.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

Not so much an etymology, but how it was used in pop culture:

Our local paper used to publish a cartoon and poem every fall. The piece was called Injun Summer, and it was printed every October from 1907-1992.

It's very much a relic of its era, which is to say "it was weird; really fucking weird." The image is lovely. The text is an old man telling a young boy a totally made up story. It's folksy, wistful and nostalgic. It talks about the past and how native spirits (literally ghosts) return to the land each fall. It's also written in the vernacular of what an old man in 1907 might sound like.

Personally, I don't think the complaints about racism were what caused them to stop printing it. I think it was the weirdness that just didn't appeal to anyone under the age of 50 (in 1992!).

The fist link shows the image with text. The second shows how it would have looked in print.

http://www.sewwug.org/images/injun_summer_2.pdf

https://drloihjournal.blogspot.com/2017/10/the-history-of-john-t-mccutcheons-1907.html

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Could you explain the firewater one?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

It's sort-of an antique trope whose main thrust is implying Native cultures are backward and unworldly because they don't have distilleries (though, point in fact, some of them did ferment alcohol).

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Firewater and other drinking stereotypes were about the myth of Native Americans all being raging alcoholics, which are as racist as saying black people are inherently violent or Jewish people inherently coveting money.

The alcohol abuse rates of Native Americans aligns with poverty issues, just like everyone else.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 11 months ago

I honestly had no idea until now that firewater had anything to do with Native Americans. I just thought it was a term for alcohol, and don't use it myself anyway.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Never heard it that way. It is a calque of a Native American name from the northern plains. I always thought a white person using it was offensive due to negative stereotypes about native Americans and drinking (and also mocking somewhat, like walking about saying “how” or speaking pidgin).

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago

Indian^*^ here, and I don’t know anyone offended by Indian summer.

^*^It says Indian on my ID.