this post was submitted on 21 Oct 2023
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As lawmakers around the world weigh bans of 'forever chemicals,” many manufacturers are pushing back, saying there often is no substitute.

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[–] alvvayson 32 points 1 year ago (4 children)

One of their uses is in firefighting chemical fires.

When an electric car is on fire, you need PFAS to stop the lithium fire. Water just can't stop it.

Of course, before batteries we used gasoline.

I imagine their might be more of these cases where modern technology relies on unsustainable practices.

[–] Vodik_VDK 8 points 1 year ago

TheConversation.com

Another factor that makes lithium-ion battery fires challenging to handle is oxygen generation. When the metal oxides in a battery’s cathode, or positively charged electrode, are heated, they decompose and release oxygen gas. Fires need oxygen to burn, so a battery that can create oxygen can sustain a fire.

Because of the electrolyte’s nature, a 20% increase in a lithium-ion battery’s temperature causes some unwanted chemical reactions to occur much faster, which releases excessive heat. This excess heat increases the battery temperature, which in turn speeds up the reactions. The increased battery temperature increases the reaction rate, creating a process called thermal runaway. When this happens, the temperature in a battery can rise from 212 F (100 C) to 1,800 F (1000 C) in a second.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Just because PFAS is one way doesn't mean there aren't other things that would work.

[–] alvvayson 5 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I really hope there are others. I haven't heard of alternatives yet.

[–] echo64 3 points 1 year ago

Regulate it and the ev car manufacturers will spend the money to find one.

[–] dragonflyteaparty 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So for electrical fires, they use carbon dioxide to smother the fire and sodium bicarbonate to aid in putting it out, along with class c fire extinguishers. Class c are just carbon dioxide.

For chemical fires, carbon dioxide extinguishers are also used. They can use extinguishers with bromochlorodifluoromethane, aka Halon 1211, (which I guess could be a pfas chemical, but I don't find anything either way).

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Electrical fires don't generate their own oxygen.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, normal electric fires don't but, as @Vodik_[email protected] already quoted, lithium-ion battery fires do generate their own oxygen

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

That was my point to. I guess I wasn't clear enough.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Good thing a lithium fire isn't an electrical fire then, isn't it?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I don't know that it is a good thing. It just means you can't use baking soda to out it out.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago

Wouldn't it just be better to cure cancer? Why don't the scientists just do that?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Sand. You use sand.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

The big one is airplane fires, AFFF is the best foam for putting out a jet fuel fire.