this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2023
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Why do you think EVs are a bad idea?
I’m going to guess “all the precious metals in manufacturing of the EV are so much worse than my gas cars!” Nonsense that the oil industry has been shilling online with bots for years to slow adoption of EVs among specific demographics.
Even though this myth has been debunked a hundred times, by folks like MIT, and in Reuters they showed if you live in an area that’s exclusively renewable power like I do, then I actually broke even 4ish years ago; within 3 months of owning my EV. Source: Reuters article, norway vs us ev break even point
But hey, I’m sure that propaganda of “just buy a gas car! It’s better for the environment” will make sense eventually once they figure out how to ignore more science.
I wonder what they thought that Prius’s battery was made out of. Must have been gas cells or something. Couldn’t be one of those pesky rare earth batteries.
Depending on when this "study" was done the Prius probably had a NiMH battery though.
They are worse on the environment then gasoline cars due to the rare earth materials needed to make a EV and it is harsher on the environment when it comes to dispose a EV once they reach end of life.
And all a EV car does is demand energy from a power plant which are either using coal or natural gas for the most part. The only "green" efficient power plant option out there is nuclear but no one wants to go nuclear.
If your concered about the climate and want to take that into account when getting a new vehicle. I always tell people to buy a used vehicle since it already exists and by driving a used car, your keeping it from being in a land fill and you save money buying used. Or the other best option is to get a bike or use public transportation.
And I do not see any difference with battery powered planes. I see more planes crashing due to using a new technology. Planes have come a long way and only gotten safer with years of engineering but by changing the power source to a battery over gasoline, unexpexted problems will like arise. Essentially do not fix what is not broken.
While it's typically true that making an EV car has more environmental impact than an ICE vehicle, this is more than compensated for by the emissions while driving, says also the EPA. Additionally, new LFP batteries are taking over the EV market and do not require rare earth minerals.
Yes, let's just ignore hydro, solar and wind power altogether. Renewable sources are currently almost 25% of US electricity production (more than coal) and growing rapidly. Also, even if you charge the EV with energy from a coal power plant, it's still better than a gasoline car. The reason is efficiency. Power plants are more efficient at getting energy from fuel than a car engine, and electrical engines are more efficiently converting energy to motion.
This is not bad advice, but even better would be to buy a used EV.
And I mean; can we just not ignore hydro at all and point out that if you own an EV in most of Canada you have broken even after your first year of driving then? Because we don’t get a choice to use “clean beautiful coal” like the trump folks want! We only get that dirty hydro!
So. Yeah. I’m happy with my EV. I bought it because gas prices are completely outrageous in British Columbia (2 a litre or 8 a gallon for the U.S. folks) I honestly didn’t think I was helping the environment so much as helping my wallet. Turns out it does both. Cool with me.
Important to note that it's not 25% spread evenly across the country. Oregon and Washington get almost all their power through hydroelectric and wind power.
Do you have a source for thinking that over the lifespan of the vehicle, that an EV is worse for the environment than a gasoline powered vehicle? Because I have multiple studies referenced in this article from the EPA stating the exact opposite.
The advantage of using an electric powertrain over any other is that the energy can be produced by any source of energy. Yes, right now, a lot of that’s coming from coal and natural gas, but even then, those power plants are WAY more efficient than the gas engines in cars and produce FAR less greenhouse gases source. Also, as countries transition from coal and gas to solar, wind, geothermal, and most critically and hopefully nuclear, the way the energy makes it from the earth to our cars can remain the same: the power grid.
Also, if everyone buys used cars, then that’ll solve the problem? Where do you think used cars come from? You think we should just keep making ICE vehicles and burning shit when we have plenty of new technologies which are being developed at breakneck pace that could actually make a huge difference in reducing emissions?
I do not have a souce that I can just copy and paste. However if I recall my source on this come from Patrick Moore who was a founder of Greenpeace or Alex Epstein. They both publish some great books on the subject of climate change.
I don’t give a shit what the founder of Greenpeace or someone who has published books thinks. I care about scientific studies. I’ll be here to review them if/when you care to actually contribute to this conversation with verifiable facts, rather than just things you remember.
Alrighty then, nice talking to you to? Books are a very reliabe source and their books have lots of scientific facts. Check them out sometime, espeically Patrick Moore's literature.
In general, sure, books can be great. When it comes to nonfiction, they need to be based on repeatable science (AKA studies). I don’t think it’s a huge ask to bring some facts to a conversation about science.
Completely agree with you. A book by default is not a reliable source, published or otherwise. It's the scientific studies it quotes that are.
Patrick Moore denies climate change so he has zero credibility. Alex Epstein is a philosophy and computer science major. Neither of those people have credibility in the topic. I would suggest you find some others who have at least an inkling of credibility.
Patrick Moore has degrees and is well educated on the subject. Patrick Moore been to the arctic and to these places that claim to be suffering from climate change.
Alex Epstein is well educated on this climate stuff. He did not go to school for it but higher education is not required to understand this climate change stuff. Anyone can be self taught these days on many subjects and fields.
Just read the books when you get a chance, until them I not interested in this one-sided debate were everything needs to be from an "official" source. I been down this road before where I read peoples sources and shared mine and I am always wrong because you got to trust the science and if some questions it like me, I become labelled as a heretic to the climate change movement.
I get it though, you been told this stuff your whole life and how to always trust "official" sources. That is how many of us were raised. It is not your fault but man, the truth will set you free. I used to be worried that by the time I become adult or be in my middle years, I would inherit a earth that is uninhabitable. The amount of anxiety and depression this puts on one person is awful. However the world will be around just like it is today for a very long time. I can promise you that.
There is no trust required in science. That’s the whole point of a study in that it lays out the methods used so others can replicate the methods to see if they arrive at the same conclusion.
Shocking (not really) that you’re willing to listen to these two authors who aren’t doing studies in this field and by your own admission, one of which just “been to the arctic,” as if that makes them credible.
Nobody’s calling you a heretic here; we’re encouraging you to provide peer-reviewed studies that refute the claims we’re making which are backed up by peer-reviewed studies. It’s an apples to apples conversation that you’re trying to force oranges into.
Also, I was raised a Christian and learned to see through the bullshit being fed to me because I learned to read studies and understand they’re the only way to know what’s actually true. We can only build upon testable, repeatable science.
I strongly disagree with your assertion that the earth will be around just like it is for a long time. We’re seeing climate changes come along A LOT sooner than predicted even just a decade ago. This is no time to be a conservative when it comes to the climate.
The same Patrick Moore who thinks that it's okay to drink weed killer? Leaving aside his insane stances on climate change, the guy is obviously a crackpot and it's wild that he is taken seriously by anyone.
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Yeah! Thank goodness for that magical gas appearance! And there’s never any rare earth metals used in those pesky computers on cars these days! Nobody has touch screens or anything! It’s all switches and dials like we used to have in the 70s!
Right? ….right?
Disagree all you want. I made my case and it is well proven in the world.
I’m certainly always open to the possibility that my views are incorrect, but I tend to base them on facts proven by repeatable science, which is why I linked studies and am requesting you do the same to back up your “well-proven case.”
You haven’t made any cases because you haven’t provided any studies. If it’s well-proven, linking us some studies should be easy.
I’d also encourage you to read the studies I linked because you might change your view on this subject. If you’re interested in learning, anyway.
Alright. Do note that there is lots of censorship around this topic. Many scientists have had their careers ruined or been censored when publishing work that goes against the climate narritive. Not many know this.
A few times in the past I have shared internet sources but was accussed of sharing unoffical sources, or unreliable sources, etc. Kinda like being accusee of sharing fake news since it did not come from a pro green NGO or government.
I do believe the points I made earlier came from either Patrick Moore or Alex Epstein.
Called it way above in the comments didn’t I? I must have ESPN or something.
So just so we’re clear; if there’s published scientific data around it: it’s a conspiracy of scientific censorship because of the “climate narrative”, but if it’s unproven opinion narrative that works for the oil companies profits that happen to be huge public policy lobbying forces; it’s definitely the truth. Because obscure scary reasons, “not many people know this” Got it.
This is the least satisfying “conversation” I think I’ve ever had on Lemmy. Usually, I’ve found SOME common ground or an ability to prove a point but this has been supremely frustrating and honestly frightening.
No wonder humanity is having trouble with climate change; this is what we’re up against: A complete disability to think critically.
Sigh. Now I remember why I do not take part in these discussions back on Reddit. Lots of inmature tribalism. Believe in whatever you want since whatever I present is never going to be considered valid.
Feelings mutual. You’re choosing to ignore all the data people are presenting you with cited information and then calling it invalid or a conspiracy of censorship. If you wanted to see people’s opinions sway, show the data. Nobody here is commenting about the morality of the issue or in a way that couldn’t be swayed.
Oh good, more unverifiable claims. As much time as you’ve spent commenting on this post, surely you could’ve come up with some links containing some actual evidence to back up your claims?
Do people not know about this stuff you claim because it’s made up? I’m very open minded and curious about your viewpoint, but you’ve given me absolutely nothing to go off of here.
You can’t just make claims and say shit like this without backing it up somehow.
You’ve provided the names of two people; am I supposed to go read ALL of their work??
Yes
You’re daft.
No. They likely had their careers ruined because they did shoddy work.
The points you made earlier are simply incorrect with even the most conservative estimates. So you should clearly not be listening to whoever wrote them.
All of that is wrong except the bike or public transportation:
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths
Lithium is not rare and is largely mined in areas with no life at all. The US gets most of its lithium from the Atacama Desert in spots where there has never been recorded rain. Cobalt is more rare but that is being phased out in newer batteries.
As for emissions, an EV is better over its lifespan even if it is charging up from 100% coal energy. The breakeven point for that is about 85k miles. With your typical energy mix, it is closer to 20-30k. Even buying a used car does not win when it comes to emissions over its use unless you are planning on driving it less than 85km.
https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM
For electric planes, they are already starting to do smaller ones with a short range. Solid state batteries will allow for much larger ones.
Nuclear is not the most green energy source. It is significantly better than fossil fuels but it is still pretty far behind both solar and wind with energy storage.
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