Men's Liberation
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
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Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
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Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
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The left has failed conservative men who search for simple answers and like clear rules and hierarchies. But I'm not sure what left can offer them in the first place.
No, the right is pulling boys and young men because they're the only ones that acknowledge that these boys are not thriving in modern society. The left still generally still thinks that young middle class and working class boys and men are prospering from the patriarchy and late stage capitalism. This hasn't been true for at least a few decades now.
Ironically patriarchy and right wing libertarianism is to blame for most of the problems of these young men so all we need to do is acknowledge their suffering and point them to the obvious socialist and left wing solutions to their problems.
There are enough solutions from the left, you say it yourself. People who don't see them - don't want to see them.
These are mostly kids. Almost all are younger than 25, their brains are not fine developing. They just know they feel bad and they look to the simplest most enticing, path of least resistance to feel good.
Leftist ideology is complex and nuanced, but contains REAL solutions. Right wing rhetoric is simple but for most people it's all empty promises and grifts. We do a great job creating accessible rhetoric for women, minorities, and LGBT+ persons and because of this these groups join in droves and obtain real improvement in their lives. We don't do a great job of tailoring rhetoric to address the moden problems of young boys that the patriarchy creates.
That's pretty much all I'm saying. I have a hard time understanding what there is to disagree with. I think you should look inside and think about what I said that you don't like and why. Maybe you have something to learn or work through.
Projecting much?
But I entertain your thought - what problems are boys facing that is not addressed by modern leftist ideology? And if you need it dumbed down and entertaining - there will be a youtube video about it.
But like you said yourself, if you are looking for "simplest most enticing, path of least resistance to feel good" - than obviously you will land with populist and snake oil sellers.
If you're going to entertain my thought I'll do yours!
I have one question from your assessment.
I feel like everyone wants the path of least resistance to feel good, and doesn't look too hard unless they make politics and ideology an important part of their lives. I also think the right is trying to capture all demographics with snake oil populism. Why are they winning with young boys and not with young women, lesbians and gays (I almost added the BT+ but trying to wipe them out of existence slows recruitment drives I think), or minorities. I think it's easy to say because they hate women and minorities but a lot of older women and minorities are strong right wingers. Are young boys are particularly wired to want snake oil compared to everyone else?
I think conservatives openly hating on women, LGBT+ and minorities might be indeed a reason why they are not as popular as with majority male young population. Not sure why you dismiss that argument. Young man, rich folks and just conservatives are the target demographic. But for a rebellious young teen boy (from my experience) it's toss up if he wants to be edgy as left or as right. Maybe right has a slight edge right now since mainstream media became extremely fake left leaning - so maybe if I was a teen right now, I myself would lean more to the right.
So your turn: what problems are boys facing that are not addressed somewhere in the left sphere?
In another comment in this thread I list some of the specific problems of boys and young men with good leftist solutions.
Sure young men join the left. I wouldn't dismiss this as "edgyness" as I said their brains aren't fully developed and that's just how they express themselves at that stage of development. But then they're generally recruited as "allies" rather than as champions of their own leftist causes.
We definitely haven't captured enough leftist men and pointed them to fight their own fights. That's the whole concept of the left. Everyone fights the patriarchy in the ways they need, and we help eachother's causes as allies. Only in all of our efforts combined do we destroy the structures that harm us all. What keeps a demographic here imo is having their own fights to fight. I think that's what's not addressed, the pipeline to channel curious dejected young boys and point them to their own leftist struggles while learning about the struggles of others isn't as well developed as other pipelines. I think this is because it's only in the last few decades that the left has had more to offer than the right for this demographic. To me that's a call to work on the pipeline not to shrug and dismiss the situation.
Also I think you dismiss too quickly what the right has to offer women and minorities. Yes they openly hate them, but they offer them their own hierarchies under which to hate and control others. That's why the right is so attractive to minorities such as immigrants who are used to thriving in the privileges offered to them in these structures. That's why it's so attractive to many older women who want power in local community social and political spheres. Although this is how their participation looks like in these structures, they usually see it as "improving societal norms" and "preventing moral decay and corruption of the youth". This is important because people need to feel like the good guys. I'm not saying these people are better off under the right. I think EVERYONE is better off with the left. But there is a lack of understanding of what the right has to offer and why it's attractive to people. It's easier to tailor our message when we empathize with people and cater the message based on that.
Edit: I would also add being good allies to young men and boys fighting the leftist fight. Sometimes we tend to fear that helping them means somehow there will be less for everyone else, but it's not a zero sum game. We destroy the patriarchy by dismantling it where it hurts us and by being a good ally to all of those who seek to dismantle it where it hurts them.
If you don't engage with what I write, than there is little point in this conversation for me.
Just want to point out, you confuse leftism and feminism and you spend to much time debatelording online, afk most people just want to live their life and not fight the system.
My comment was too long as is. There are like 20 comments in this thread I didn't think I was asking for a lot to point you to a list.
I got to "the patriarchy" through leftism not feminism. When I say patriarchy I mean hierarchal structures of oppression. I spent a long time working against hierarchal structures and thinking before I realized that when feminists say "the patriarchy" they refer specifically to the primary hierarchal structure of oppression that has been operating for the last few centuries in the western world and in other parts. Since it's more specific and precise than "the primary hierarchal structure of oppression that has been operating for the last few centuries in the western world and in other parts" I use it. It also helps me understand and connect to feminism better. I find as a man, it's easy to feel alienated with certain rhetoric lately so this helps counter that.
I feel like I responded directly to your question though:
We don't have a good pipeline for young men to get from curious to fighting for their rights through leftism
We're not good allies to young men who fight for leftist ideology.
You're right in your final point, most people just want to live their lives. When we show them the things that help them are on the left they'll vote left. The ones who want to fight will be the ones fighting.
No you still didn't answer what aspects for young men, the left does not cover?
Also do you have any real life experience with leftist spaces? I happen to work with visuals and so I'm involved in with the alternative scene quite a bit. Never been alienated as a dude or see other guys being alienated for being a man. There is also no shortage of guys there.
Kudos to you for contributing! No, I've never felt out of place in leftist spaces, but I know many young men are alienated by what they see of "loud" leftist ideology, lack of support online etc....
As for "aspects" I believe ideologically the left has the best answers for men. I think it's more the logistical aspects I described in previous posts we don't cover well/enough.
So how does the left has the answers for men despite not even asking the questions?
Or maybe of what they see, by how right wing is portraying the leftist ideology? Lack of support online, what do you even mean?