this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
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[–] [email protected] 33 points 1 year ago (10 children)

No, it's zero emission but not renewable.

Nuclear fission is actually by definition the least renewable energy source. Even coal and oil are renewable on long enough time scales. But there will never be more uranium than there is right now.

We actually don't have that much of it if we consider the long term future, only a thousand years or so. So nuclear is intended to be a bridge to eventual full renewable power generation and storage, an essential component in the present day but it's still a bridge.

Another thing to consider is that nuclear is the only power source that works in deep space away from the Sun. So if we're serious about exploring the solar system or further, we'd be best not to burn up all of our fissionable material right away.

[–] thomasloven 12 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Coal exist in the earth because back then the bacteria who could break down lignin and cellulose hadn’t evolved, so dead trees had the time they needed to compress. There are such bacteria around now, though, and that means there will never be any new natural coal.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The process to produce coal is known for 100 years now. Its just not feasible, because no one needs coal. But its reversible. No one knows how to fuse uranium.

[–] bouh 4 points 1 year ago

We actually know how. It's the cycle of thorium. You make U233 from Th232.

[–] Fondots 1 points 1 year ago

I wouldn't necessarily say never, it could potentially happen that a dead tree ends up in an environment that isn't conducive to lignin-eating bacteria getting to it, and I would not be at all surprised if it has happened and may continue to happen somewhere in the world since those bacteria evolved, though they would certainly be exceptional cases and almost definitely not happening at any significant scale.

It's also possible for those bacteria to go extinct one way or another. Again, not very likely. And if it did happen it would probably be due to some absolutely catastrophic disaster absolutely wrecking the Earth's ecosystem completely in which case we're probably not going to make it either, but hey, new coal!

[–] AbsolutelyNotABot 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Nuclear fission is actually by definition the least renewable energy source

But if you go according the strict physical principle every energy source is non-renewable

The sun fuses a finire amount of hydrogen, earth has a finire amount of latent heat, the moon a finire amount of gravitational inertia etc.

And there's a little paradox if you think about it, how can fusion be non-renewable but solar, that use radiation from the sun fusion, be renewable?

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

A bit of a stretch maybe, but I'm considering us to be discussing whether an energy source is renewable on Earth. The Sun is not renewable, but by the time that it's no longer viable the Earth will be long gone as well! So as long as the Earth exists, I would say that solar PV and other solar driven processes like wind and hydro are renewable.

By these standards yes, deep geothermal and tidal are "not renewable" either.

[–] AbsolutelyNotABot 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

but by the time that it's no longer viable the Earth will be long gone as well

But that's exactly the "problem", there's enough fertile material for potential millions of years of consumption, and that's for fission alone.

I think the debacle is more because the definition of "renewable" is a little arbitrary than the dilemma if nuclear is renewable or not

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think we both agree on fertile material as discussed in another comment, the longevity issue is mostly with conventional LWRs burning up our fuel rapidly.

I'm just being pedantic about the sun, lol

[–] AbsolutelyNotABot 1 points 1 year ago

mostly with conventional LWRs burning up our fuel rapidly

Well, yes, the obvious counter argument being that, you will never build more advanced reactors on scale (some are already available), or develop new fuel cycle if you stunt the evolution process and block the technology we already have.

Imagine saying to be favourable to installing solar panels but only when they will be 100% recyclable and with efficiency close to the theorical maximum

[–] schroedingershat 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

This would be relevant if any reactor had ever gotten its energy from primarily from fertile material. None have so it is not.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

That's look like not renewable, but like "smaller resources cost".

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[–] schroedingershat 2 points 1 year ago

A thousand years is a massive over-estimate. Providing the 6TW or so of final energy with the stuff assumed to exist that's vaguely accessible for costs that don't exceed renewables' total cost is well under a decade.

No breeding program has ever done a full closed cycle and even if it were to happen, the currently proposed technologies only yield about 50 years.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Will have more when the sun explodes.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

"Renewable" typically means renewable on human time scales, so fossil fuels don't count.

Biofuel would be renewable.

If you consider fusion to be "nuclear", that's renewable. But yeah, not fission.

It is zero emission though.

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