this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2024
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[–] jordanlund 8 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Article II of the genocide convention has 5 definitions, any one of the five is enough for it to be called a genocide:

https://iccforum.com/genocide-convention

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Attempting to eliminate a culture by restricting it's beliefs, teachings, or language would fall under (c). This is precisely what was done in the US and Canada with "Indian Schools" for example, and partially is what is being done to the Uyghurs in China, although they are also being subjected to (a), (b), (d) and (e) as well.

[–] FlyingSquid -1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Indian Schools were boarding schools that forced kids to use English. That is not the same.

I gave two scenarios here: Public schools not teaching Russian in Ukraine and a hypothetical scenario where the very real American enclaves in Mexico were prevented from celebrating U.S. independence day if Mexico were invaded and asked if those were genocide. Neither of them fit that list and yet I have been told the former is genocide and, despite three responses, the latter has yet to be even responded to.

So I will ask both again, rephrasing one of them:

  1. There are lots of Chinese-Americans in the U.S. If no U.S. public school taught Mandarin, would that be genocide?

  2. There are American cultural enclaves in Mexico. If the U.S. invaded Mexico and Mexico told those cultural enclaves they couldn't celebrate the 4th of July, would that be genocide?

I would really appreciate an answer. Because if the answer to both questions, especially the first one, is 'yes,' the genocide is, as I said, not all that horrific.

[–] jordanlund 5 points 4 days ago (1 children)
  1. No, because in that scenario there's a choice. Chinese Americans have the choice of attending schools where their language and culture is taught.

  2. Absolutely. Because it's attempting to stamp out a language and culture with no alternative.

[–] FlyingSquid -2 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Isn't that similar to celebrating Russian Independence Day on June 12th in Ukraine? Or celebrating Hitler's Birthday in Britain after they joined the war? I just don't see how that's genocidal. It's not allowing people to celebrate the enemy.

[–] jordanlund 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

"Enemy" is a relative term. Imprisoning the Japanese in internment camps was a genocidal act. It was an attempt to eliminate a culture because of a perception that they were "the enemy" when they were not.

[–] FlyingSquid 2 points 4 days ago (1 children)

But I am not talking about Japanese internment camps nor am I justifying them. Again, I am talking about celebrating the independence day of the country invading yours. I just don't see how banning that is genocide.

[–] jordanlund 1 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You're talking about "the enemy" which, as noted, is a relative term.

Actively quashing a culture with the intent to eliminate it is genocide. That's item (c) of the definition.

[–] FlyingSquid 2 points 4 days ago

I gave a specific scenario. A country refusing to let people celebrate the independence day of the invading force. Which is who I was defining as "the enemy," and I'm not sure how you weren't clear on that. In this case, "the enemy" is Russia, which I think you agree with me about.

And I just do not see how Ukraine banning the celebration of Russian independence day counts as genocide.