this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2024
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[–] enbyecho -5 points 15 hours ago (5 children)

Breaking the rules isn’t fascism though. Fascism is fascism.

It is precisely fascism. It's ignoring the rule of law to achieve authoritarian aims. Why is it ok when you agree with the outcome and not ok when you don't? But way more importantly, once you do it you cannot go back. If Biden did this and Trump ended up winning - make no mistake Biden has no authority to remove candidates from ballots - then Trump would feel completely justified in jailing his opponents.

What do you think is a more ethical choice

A. Because the premise of your choice is flawed. You do not know that breaking the law would stop him. You do not know -with certainty- that not breaking the law would result in that outcome. But we do know that being authoritarian to achieve aims we believe in is no better than people we disagree with doing the exact same. What would happen if Biden was successful in stopping Trump but then, because we wouldn't ever keep unfettered presidential power... right? RIGHT? We're the "good" guys... what would happen if MAGA Republicans won in 2028? I doubt we'd ever have another election again.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 6 hours ago

What makes a society good is being inclusive of everyone regardless of how they were born and working through cooperation to achieve goals and look out for each other. A society where people are intentionally neglected for another group's economic gain is not a desirable society unless you're a fascist. However, ideologies are not people and ideologies that promote an unequal society do not need to be tolerated, and people who pose a danger due to their actions to the people around them in a society that would otherwise be more fair do not need to be tolerated either.

Neither authoritarianism nor ignoring the rule of law are inherently bad. In reality, law isn't words written on a piece of paper - it's people with political motives that hold authority over law enforcement and the criminal justice system. The words themselves hold no authority, and they depend on the people to actually follow them, so the people can collectively choose to ignore them or change their meaning and now suddenly the law is different even though the words didn't change one bit. The political motives the people who decide the law have generally favor a society that supports corruption and inequality, so there is nothing inherently wrong with breaking the law, especially if it makes everyone's lives better.

Fascism is a specific type of authoritarianism that basically does the opposite to a society of what it should look like. Utilizing authority to make society better for basically everyone is not fascism. Utilizing authority to dehumanize a subset of people for the economic gain of a "superior race" is fascism.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

What would happen if Biden was successful in stopping Trump but then, because we wouldn’t ever keep unfettered presidential power… right? RIGHT? We’re the “good” guys… what would happen if MAGA Republicans won in 2028? I doubt we’d ever have another election again.

From the standpoint of democracy that wouldn't be ideal, but why is republicans having 2(4) years of unchecked power better? They don't give a shit and gonna do a lot more damage to it.

Why is it ok when you agree with the outcome and not ok when you don’t?

Because the side coming to power wants to gleefully deport, repress and kill people, and the other one much less so. The good guys are "good" not because they respect the rules, but because they believe in humane values, in ending their fists when the others' faces begins and all that good stuff. The fascists are bad not because they break the law, but because they believe and want to do fascism.

If the rules are unjust then breaking them is an ethical imperative. And Trump not being in jail is frankly a crime against lady liberty.

[–] TheHighRoad 8 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Uh, Trump feels completely justified in jailing his enemies already. Will it happen? I'm not excited to wait and find out.

[–] enbyecho -1 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (1 children)

True. But the one thing we've got going for us is that it is demonstrably wrong and we didn't fall into the trap of proving it was justified.

Edit: well at least two people think it's ok to use authoritarian political power to counter authoritarian political power. Do you really think that ever works out? Note that this is very distinct from something like civil war or overthrowing the government. It's doing the exact thing you don't want your opponent to do.

[–] TheHighRoad 4 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Tis a risky game, doing what's right.

[–] enbyecho 1 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

"what’s right" is, sadly not an agreed-upon concept.

[–] TheHighRoad 2 points 12 hours ago

That may be true, but I happen to believe that truth does exist. All we can do is hold on to it.

[–] Manifish_Destiny 5 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

Are you really achieving authoritarian aims if the end goal is not authoritarian?

[–] enbyecho -1 points 14 hours ago

Ah, the benevolent dictator fallacy. Because no person or party would ever abuse power or fail to give it up once the "aim" is achieved. There certainly would be no expansion in what the "aim" is. And definitely the people we agree with are always good.

[–] putainsdetoiles 4 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

I doubt we’d ever have another election again.

With Trump in office, and Project 2025 in the pipeline, I doubt we're ever going to have another election anyway.

[–] enbyecho -1 points 14 hours ago

I doubt we’re ever going to have another election anyway.

I sometimes feel that way. But I still have some faith in people, particularly Gen Z. I believe after the shit hits the fan and keeps hitting it for 4 years, that we'll turn this around. And because we didn't agree to make presidents kings we can actually do that.