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Ah, so now it's time for baseless accusations from our side, yes?
As long as there is no proof this is as much a conspiration theory as the the bullshit the right was spewing about in 2020.
Ah yes, it's exactly the same with no differences, surely Trump isn't known to be a cheat and a liar from every single other interaction he's ever had with a human being. Surely he hasn't stated publicly his intentions to cheat the election. No, he's a perfect human being and we're all just shouting about voter fraud because we're stupid.
Not what I said.
I think it need more than one person to cheat on this scale, no?
He hasn't. He said they need no more votes. You are taking thins one thing he said and pretending it's "intention to cheat the election.". Which is simply not true. It could also mean that he is sure he will win, because he thinks he has got all the states he needs on his side. I'm sure there are more interpretations. But that's all it is.
Never said that.
Never said that. Your angry, hurt, what ever. Emotional. And I understand that. I'm absolutely devasted by this shit. And I see how one might jump to conspiracy thinking in such a situation. I just don't think it helps, so I'll call it what it is. Not to attack you, as a person, or to call you names. Just because I don't think it's helpful.
I think we (as in "the left") should try to base our opinions on facts and not repeat the shit the right is doing all the time, throwing baseless accusations around.
That's fair, and I'm sorry to have been an asshole about it. I deserve that. However, conspiracy thinking or no, I think it's extremely valid to be suspicious of these results. There are quite a lot of factors at play here that can cast what I consider to be reasonable doubt over this whole situation.
Sure, don't jump right to conspiracy theories off the bat, fair enough. But also don't be blind to what is in front of us. Things don't add up here in a way that makes sense to me. In particular, I question the fact that nearly 1 in 2 Latino voters voted to deport themselves and their families, and I find it difficult to believe that 15+ million other voters who showed up to vote for Joe Biden, didn't show up to vote for Harris. It was all the same threat, magnified, with a much more palatable upside than the first time and a much more clear view of the alternative. These people should have been, and by all accounts were, even more motivated than in 2020. This is the most politicized election we've had in over a century, nobody didn't hear about this.
The whole thing just stinks. It stinks all to hell and I think I'm justified in believing the conservatives pulled off a successful steal this time just like they've been promising to, not least of which is because by the time I woke up after election night everyone had already decided none of the Dems showed up and Trump had won, when according to gov websites the final vote tally and certification isn't even until mid December. I've never seen election results get called so early that I can remember. I saw three different news stories about conservatives setting ballot boxes on fire. Our gerrymandering maps are so bad they can be confused for TV static from a distance. Millions of people had their voting registration purged by state level conservatives weeks or days before the election.
I think a little bit of suspicion surrounding the results is beyond justified.
No worries. We all have to cope with this some way or another and sometimes that mean beeing a bit of an asshole. I don't take it personal, I understand where you are coming from.
Latin are a conservative bunch by nature. Many of the progressiv view the left hold, regarding for example masculinity and feminism, stand in contrast to their culture. (This is a very broad statement that does not aplly to all Lations!) And many think that it's not going to be them that will be deported, it will he those Mexican drug smugglers. Which is a delusional view to hold, in my opinion. Same fore for queer folk voting red. But it is want it is and the data we have from polling and voting do add up in regards to Lations.
Yes, that's hard to swallow, I agree. Maybe it's because the last vote happened with Corona in the backdrop? Maybe Trumps many Errors where much more fresh on the mind of so many. Maybe inflation kept people from trusting the Democrats. Maybe some just won't vote for a female. Or a black person. Or, god forbid, both. Lots of possible reasons. I do think we should try to understand them and filter them on in the future.
Yes, but that means you also listen to 2 party's accusing one another of beeing the devil / literaly Hitler for one year plus. I see how people who are not that interested in politics can get numb to this.
This realy sound exactly what republicans said in 2020.
That's because they were realy very obvious this time. It didn't come down to just a couple of votes in swingstates like in 2020.
According to this 2016, 2012 and 2008 where called on simular schedules or earlier. 2020 was an outline because of the amount of mail in votes.
All of there are fair points, and they should be handled in two ways: Take evidence to the courts where illegal things happend. And try to change the system where fraud has been made legal.
Regarding both points i think it is a very real possibility that the window to deal with them is past and the Trump administration will solidify and widen them. This might have been our last fair election.
My only hope is that it goes like last time and they are at each other's throuts for 4 years or just to incompetent to do to much that has lasting damaged. But I'm not betting on that. I think this time they will come prepared. And it will be the end of America as it is now.
You've been very reasonable about this in the face of my ranting and I appreciate it. I specifically don't want to become "blue MAGA" and level heads like yours are what's going to prevent a lot of us from going there. I'm still mad, and I still think this all needs attention and isn't getting it, though. I don't know what to do about that other than crow about it on the internet or show up to the white house. I don't think either of those are good ideas.
One person is not a conspiracy theory. "I believe..." is what I wrote. Trump is a convicted criminal, proven liar and a deadbeat who stiffs people. It's quite logical to look negatively on an individual who admires dictators and the worst genocidal person in history (so far).
Sure, but you are not the only person here, who is taking that narrative.
Sure Trump is a fucking Bastard. But we hit quite hard on the right for speeding their conspiracy "stolen election" shit in 2020. I just don't think it's sensible to turn that around. With clear cut evidence: sure thing. But just making the accusation... Na, not so much.
And yet we are comparing one persons speculation against the man who has lied on record over 30+ thousand times while he was pretending to be president. We are all entitled to our opinions. I am not leading the charge to be like maga but blue. If I was, you would be correct in screaming at me because you should tell people they are in a cult. I was bring up a possibility that the nasty orange nazi probably broke the law, again. Because, that's his actual job.
I honestly don't see how I am or was screaming at you and u apologise if it came across as such. You are stating your opinion, which you indeed are entitled too. I am stating why I disagree. I am not attacking you as a person, or trying to belittle you for it. I simply don't think it beneficial (for the left) to hold the view you have stated without evidence.
Trump is a con man and a liar, absolutely. But for pulling of something on this scale it needs way, way more than one person. And all of them would have to hold tight, no leaks what so ever. That just doesn't sound realistic to me. I do hold the view hat we should base our opinions in fact, not speculation. I don't mean this as an attack. Ist just my view.
I am also not accusing you or anyone of beeing in cult.
I said it before to another person here, I'll say it again: I understand how you, how we all are angry, hurt, devasted even after this election. I share those emotions very much.
I still don't think we should copy the behaviour of the other side. I know you feel justified in your option. So do they. That doesn't make it more or less true though. Cult like would leave no room for discussion what so ever tough. I think we have that room, and are engaging in it right now. I think indeed the very fact that we are able to exchange opinions on this shows how this is very much not a cult.