this post was submitted on 08 Nov 2024
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There is an unfortunate reality that there is a tipping point. At some point, Europe will need to cede Ukraine and stock up for itself to defend the next Russian incursion.
There is always a cutoff cost. For example, it cannot support Ukraine to the point that it's own territorial security is compromised.
Ukraine is currently fighting this war for Europe too. Spending money and lifes directly in a confrontation is massively more expensive than sending weapons.
Yeah, why would Europe do that? After all its Ukrainians who will continue dying after being kidnapped off the streets and forbidden to leave the country.
Enjoy your life, and don't think of hundreds of thousands dead people (not like you ever did that of course)..
Yeah the best way to discourage a revanchist is to give him what he wants. Succeeding in Ukraine will definitely convince Putin not to attack the baltics, poland, or finland.
If NATO is really as effective as it's claimed to be, then the baltics, Poland, and Finland have nothing to worry about.
The enemy is both strong and weak. Russia is a paper tiger that will roll over all of Europe.
That's what I don't get. Russia is a laughing stock with its outdated equipment and inability to conquer Ukraine, yet it is also a massive threat to Europe leading Sweden and Finland scrambling to join NATO.
And if we are to believe that NATO is an effective alliance, then surely Russia will go no further than Ukraine. Yet we can't let Putin win because he will try to go further than Ukraine.
Make it make sense. Some people are talking out both sides of their mouths.
You don’t understand what Russia wants; you understand what Western propaganda tells you it wants.
INB4 NATO is a defensive alliance.
Just because you can cherry pick a dozen articles from the last TEN YEARS about NATO and Ukraine doesn't make you right.
I don't even need an article to refute all of that - Russia attacked a neighbor unprovoked, NATO has attacked NOBODY ever.
I just showed you any number of Western media sources on how it was provoked, but here’s another from Jeffrey Sachs: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace
For just two examples, NATO bombed the city of Belgrade for 78 straight days, and it destroyed Libya.
Lol. Neoliberal wrecking crew turned autocrat's errand boy.
Naomi Klein wasn’t wrong about neoliberal/neocolonial shock therapy, but she was wrong to paint Sachs as the great villain of that story. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWYZpF2ngnc
History has misjudged Jeffery Sachs according to... Jeffery Sachs!
Let's be real, he's the main guy pushing the "NATO expansion" theory of Russian aggression everywhere, and it exists mainly to cover for his own crimes.
What's more likely: that Russian revanchism came from anger over some arcane treaty negotiations, or that it came from the absolute collapse in material condition, civil society, population, daily lived experience and life expectancy that Russians experienced as Sachs and his evil clients dismantled the once-great civilization for their own enrichment? What do you think Marx's assessment of those two theories would be?
Sachs is a bag man. He helped the oligarchs destroy Russia and then he made himself useful to the new ruler when they were gone. He also spends a lot of time in Beijing and has a lot of good things to say about Xi as well. The guy's a serpent.
Well there’s your problem: you believe the imperial core’s narrative that this is about “Russian revanchism” and not about decades of NATO expansion or Western Ukrainian fascists terrorizing eastern Ukrainians for almost a decade.
Believe what you like, but you don’t seem to be winning any hearts and minds here, and hardly anyone reads this far down conversation threads, anyway.
That is not what happened. It is now known that that was in fact a false flag attack by CIA-backed Banderite fascists. It is also now known that the “peaceful protest” was not entirely grassroots, but rather astroturfed.
But why am I wasting my arguing with you when you’re obviously here for some reason to carry water for imperialists? The US is aiding and abetting a genocide in Palestine as we speak, yet somehow you still think we’re the good guys (though, to be fair, I wouldn’t call Russia a perfect angel, either).
As long as NATO stops its incursions, I don’t see why European states would need to do that.
I was saying that with the assumption that the US winds down support for Ukraine and is not seen as a trusted partner for European security.
I mean, the US Democrat administration blew up its European partner’s gas pipeline, which is a casus belli, so it was already untrustworthy.
Henry Kissinger:
That is a crazy take. Europe could spend some money and help Ukraine win this without losing any of their own soldiers' lives.
yeah, it's only Ukrainians hopping into the meat grinder, after all