78
Can Trump pardon himself even though he did criminal stuff outside of office?
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this post was submitted on 07 Nov 2024
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Even under the best circumstances reforming the SC would be extremely unlikely because it would require a super majority. Same with election reform. Our government, in its entirety, will now be run by extremists who literally ran on deconstructing our government and replacing it with something in their image. The way our government has worked our entire lives is likely over.
Trump is effectively king now. SC made him immune to any and all prosecution while president. Laws only work if the will of the people make them work. The majority of Americans just crowned a king. They aren't going to make those laws work. You will not see justice for Trump's crimes now. That possibility is gone.
Doesn't matter. He will be replaced and nothing about this timeline will change.
I mean, obviously. But considering the two timelines we had an option to be on, we chose the worst. And it's going to be very, very bad for average Americans.
"Even under the best circumstances reforming the SC would be extremely unlikely"
No, under the best circumstances it would be extremely likely.
Roberts, Thomas et al would keel over from heart attacks, Trump would have an attack of conscience and elect compassionate, wise judges.
or Hakeem Jeffr ies is persuasive than Trump and everyone commits to Court reform.
"now be run by extremists who literally ran on deconstructing our government and replacing it with something in their image."
they'll certainly try.
there's just too much historical evidence going against your theory of defeatist inevitability/futility.
"The way our government has worked our entire lives is likely over."
this has happened uncountable times throughout just US history, but especially recently when the president was afforded absolutely legal immunity.
I'd say that decision was more ultimately significant than Trump being elected.
"SC made him immune to any and all prosecution while president"
many of dumps past, current and upcoming cases definitively do not have to do with his presidency and occurred outside of his presidency completely.
"Laws only work if the will of the people make them work."
not really. Trump didn't get fined $100 million and lose two court cases solely because of the will of the people.
he went to court because of the legal system, and he lost those legal battles three times recently.
"The majority of Americans just crowned a king."
a chubsy jester, but sure.
"You will not see justice for Trump's crimes now. That possibility is gone."
already seen it a few times, probably going to see it again.
"Doesn't matter. He will be replaced and nothing about this timeline will change."
this is ridiculous and has zero evidence to support it.
dumps is the zealot catalyst here, the person in the seat pretending to fellate and stroke microphones is very important.
If you don't understand that, then your entire realistic perspective is foundationally flawed.
"I mean, obviously."
that this is not the worst timeline was obvious to me.
you claimed the literal opposite statement, that this was in fact the worst timeline, in the previous comment.
"But considering the two timelines we had an option to be on..."
you believe in timelines, but you believe there are only two at any specific moment?
bullet 2 inches left
Hilary doesn't steal Sanders' nomination.
5/4 decisions go four-five.
expand your mind.
"it's going to be very, very bad for average Americans."
oh yeah. almost all Americans. but you know they voted for it so...
blocking the bike path for everyone else, too.
I was talking about best case scenarios in reality, not fantasy.
Such as?
Do you honestly think that matters now? Everything we've seen up to this point suggests that Trump will not be held accountable for his crimes and that was BEFORE being crowned king. He will not be held accountable for any of his crimes. You can take me to the bank on that one.
What we are experiencing now is entirely unprecedented in U.S. history.
Has he, thus far, suffered the repercussions of these cases?
Being convicted of a crime is not justice if one does not end up suffering repercussions along with those convictions.
If Trump dies or becomes incapacitated, he is replaced by JD Vance and business as usual resumes. Nothing changes. GOP still calling the shots. Trump is a useful idiot. Nothing more. His presence doesn't matter now that he's completed his primary objective, which was to get the GOP back in power.
It is the worst timeline of the two that were available to us. I'm not entertaining timelines in which aliens invade or Big Foot runs for governor. I was talking about the two realistic timelines diverging because of the 2024 election. I didn't think I needed to specify, but apparently I did for the contrarians out there.
Let it go. Being an edgelord isn't necessary here.
Here is where we agree. 2016 could be chalked up to people being desperate for change and choosing to gamble on an unknown. Although to anyone that bothered to know anything about Donald Trump, he wasn't an unknown and we knew it would be an awful mistake. And he didn't win the popular vote, so he was forced on us by a minority. However, in 2024, we gleefully placed him back in power with a majority. This is squarely on Americans and we absolutely deserve the suffering that's coming. People in other countries that will be affected by this don't though.
The good news is that no one is hurt more by conservative policy than poor, rural conservatives. But I'm sure they'll find someone else to blame once the real suffering sets in. They always do.
"I was talking about best case scenarios in reality, not fantasy."
what do you think scenarios are?
"Such as?"
Just to keep it simple, literally 4 years ago when everyone assumed Trump was inevitably going to win and was crying and making their silly little defeatist memes and comments, and then Biden kicked his ass and enacted remarkably progressive legislation that changed the country.
"Do you honestly think that matters now?"
of course it does.
you don't understand how the legal system works even at a basic level.
which you'll need to understand before you can comprehend the number of elements at play and the legal system and how they work together in real life and not the rain clouds you're tucking yourself under.
"Everything we've seen up to this point suggests that Trump will not be held accountable for his crimes".
you are completely incorrect again.
he's a 34 time convicted felon, he's already had to pay $100 million and lost multiple court cases.
"not be held accountable for his crimes and that was BEFORE"
he literally was held accountable multiple times already and he's still under indictment in many cases with more upcoming.
Shoot, it'll be illegal for him to vote as soon as he's sentenced.
you're completely wrong and ignorant of his legal status and his past consequences.
"You can take me to the bank on that one."
you're bankrupt, you are already wrong on both false assumptions.
"What we are experiencing now is entirely unprecedented in U.S. history."
how?
that makes no sense.
you mean this one person was literally never elected to a second term at the exact moment in history?
I guess, but someone was going to be elected. turns out it was dumps.
"If Trump dies or becomes incapacitated, he is replaced by JD Vance and business as usual resumes. Nothing changes"
you're afraid, fine, but your fear doesn't mean anything is inevitable or futile.
think about all these basic facts you've been wrong about just talking to one guy on the internet.
you think it didn't matter that Hitler was the one who took control of Germany, that Napoleon was just a chance roll of the dice and anybody could have taken his place?
No, demagogues are a very specific type of people who act in a very specific way.
jd Vance would not have inspired a violent riot.
Trump specifically did.
The figurehead matters, you just lack the historical knowledge and context to see that.
you aren't saying anything valid, you're exhibiting anxiety and making demonstrably false assumptions.
"Has he, thus far, suffered the repercussions of these cases?"
Yes. again, he's out $100 million, with 400 more on the line, he's about to be sentenced for his felony convictions,his time is being wasted in court constantly. and more cases are coming up, wasting more of his time.
you're lucky i like teaching.
it's startling the amount you don't know while still willing to repeat certain tangentially related phrases you've heard before.
"It is the worst timeline of the two that were available to us"
again, it is illogical and absurd to believe in timelines and also believe there are only two.
expand your mind.
and seriously, try not to talk about things you have such limited knowledge about.
however cool you think empty cynical buzzwords are, they reflect poorly on you and render any points you're trying to make completely impotent.
or at least ask in a more respectful way.
you sound like you're pouting but desperate to learn more from me.
holding your breath until your face turns blue, but like peeking over your shoulder at me to make sure I'm watching haha.
you can just ask politely and I will explain how these things work or provide the historical context you lack.
you're not fooling anybody pretending you know anything about these subjects by making clearly false statements.
Ok, before I even get into this, are you aware that to the left of your question mark button is a button that has a right facing arrow, and if you put that right facing arrow in front of any of my quotes you don't have to put quotations marks around my quotes in your responses and it makes your comments WAY easier to read by separating them from mine with a visual marker? Allow me to teach you.
I mean, there are realistic scenarios and non-realistic scenarios. When we're talking about an election and I say we ended up in the worst timeline, clearly I'm not talking about all possible fantastic timelines like all humans spontaneously growing a third arm on their foreheads.
But this isn't the same situation. Trump came out of left field and won and no one, including himself, was prepared. And he still managed to create significant chaos and implement changes that have long-term effects. But he also had the highest White House administration turnover rate in history. It wasn't an effective administration at all, which kept it from causing even more damage. Now they have had years to plan. Years to find the people they want in the positions they want them in. They have policy detailing how they're going to dismantle our government and rebuild it in their image. And they openly ran on that policy.
Pick up a history book. Hitler got curb stomped the first time he gained some power and went to prison. Had time to plan some things. Came back and took power and....well...yeah.
This is a much more concerted, detailed effort than the last unplanned for clusterfuck. It is guaranteed that they will do anything and everything while in TOTAL control of our government in order to prevent them from losing any future election. They have paths to effectively make it impossible for a Democrat win. Legislation can be passed to change gerrymandering rules to give them an even bigger advantage than they already have. They have made it abundantly clear that they have no concern for norms or rules in general if those rules don't benefit them.
Illuminate me. Please. Instead of just saying I don't, explain to me what I don't understand that makes anything I've said not a real, valid concern.
Laws only work if they are enforced. It is enshrined in our Constitution that presidents must divest from their businesses while in office. The Republican party flagrantly dismissed that directive for Donald Trump. Laws can be broken without repercussion if not enforced. They are now in control of all branches of our government. You think Republicans are going to enforce laws on themselves when we already know they're not willing to do so? Or that they won't legislate the laws that don't benefit them out of existence?
Can you provide proof to me that he has already paid E. Jean Carroll $100 million? Losing a court case is not justice if there is no punishment actually enforced. Can you point to any actual repercussions that have actually taken place for Donald Trump for any crime he has committed in recent memory? I'm fully aware, as you are, that he was originally fined $5 million for raping E. Jean Carroll, and then fined an extra $90 million for defaming her. Can you provide proof that sum has already been paid to E. Jean Carroll?
Again, being held accountable is paying for your crimes, not having a judge read off your sentencing in a courtroom. And what do you believe will happen to his other cases now that he's been crowned king? There's really no way for us to know yet, but the likliehood that they will go away just skyrocketed. Because some of what he's indicted for comes with jail time if convicted. Do you honestly believe a sitting president, whose party now has total control of our government, will have to report to prison, especially with the SC's recent broad decision about presidential immunity?
Past consequences? Like, are we going back decades here? Like when he lost a case for discriminating against black renters decades ago? I'm talking about his modern crimes. What ACTUAL repercussions has he suffered? He pay that $100 mil yet?
If you don't grasp how what we're experiencing is unprecedented in American history, I'm not sure how much I can help you.
We have a party that has been taken over by extremists. I've been around long enough to confirm to you that the Republican party now is absolutely not the Republican party of the past. It is being taken over by extremists. By conspiracy theorists. Their officials helped spread a lie about our democratic institutions that resulted in an attempted insurrection on our government. They voted not to certify the 2020 election. They ran a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist who illegally attempted to overturn an election and ran on "dealing with the enemy within" and HE WON. That criminal and extremist party now fully controls our federal government.
THAT IS UNPRECEDENTED.
You haven't proven me wrong on a single thing. The only thing you stated was that I didn't know how our legal system worked without explaining to me why you think I'm wrong. Saying someone is wrong is not proving someone is wrong. You think I'm wrong about Trump not suffering consequences? He hasn't. Prove to me he has since first taking office in 2016.
Yes, and he already did his job and put his party back in power. Do you honestly think that all conservative policy and efforts stop when Trump dies? Are you insane? He wouldn't be who he is without the party that backed him. That party remains when he is gone and they've proven to be just as unethical and volatile as him BY SUPPORTING HIM UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES.
Please don't do it professionally. You are extremely bad at it. You don't even know how to use basic keyboard functions that work on Lemmy or Reddit so your replies to me don't look like one long run on paragraph with no clear seprations between what you're saying and my quotes.
It's time to let this go. Being an edgelord never works in your favor when having a debate. Everyone but you understands what I was talking about. You're being a contrarian and that's only something people bad at debating do.
Expand your knowledge regarding how to properly use this site's functions to make your replies not look like garbled trash.
I'm talking to a person so ignorant that they don't understand what's unprecedented about the political situation we find ourselves in. I assure you, I have nothing to learn from you.
“are you aware that…right facing arrow”
yup.
I’ll make a note of your difficulties though:
"confused by...quotation marks."
"Finds...own quotations...difficult to read…"
okay, got it.
“I’m not talking about all possible fantastic timelines”
you literally said “best-case scenario”
A few American 80-year-olds dying oh heart attacks is fairly realistic.
“Trump came out of left field…”
I can’t tell if you’re trying to paraphrase what I said or...I don’t see the point of this section at all. You’re agreeing with my point that sometimes things that seem inevitable are not inevitable.
“Illuminate me. Please. Instead of just saying I don’t, explain to me what I don’t understand that makes anything I’ve said not a real, valid concern.”
Sure.
A conservative majority is a problem, but does not create the inevitabilities you are worried about. Yes, things will likely get much worse for most people because Trump was elected, but importantly:
Is everything over and nobody can ever change anything again as you claim?
No, of course not, because inevitabilities are unfeasible in the real world.
You’re wallowing in a moment.
Time to move on.
“Laws only work if they are enforced.”
As they worked in extracting about a hundred million from Trump and convicting him 34 times.
“Can you provide proof to me that he has already paid E. Jean Carroll $100 million?”
He’s posted bond(paid the money) for those cases specifically(consequences of the legal system).
Here’s all the other major legal consequences to his ongoing cases. As mentioned, many are cases he is definitively unlikely to succeed in claiming as “presidential duties” as they happened out of office or are state cases not liable to federal oversight.
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/what-happens-to-trump-criminal-cases/index.html
He’s spending time and money defending himself and so far, losing those cases. Those are consequences.
These cases are ongoing. You’re complaining about mights and maybes rather than the consequences he’s already faced that specifically disprove your “no consequences” theory.
“He pay that $100 mil yet?”
Yes, he did.
When you pay bond, you provide the money that is held in escrow until the completion of the appeals process.
“I’m not sure how much I can help you.”
No worries, I made that estimate a few comments back.
“HE WON.”
He won before. Four years later he lost, his policies were reversed and remarkably progressive legislation was passed.
“You haven’t proven me wrong on a single thing.”
a few things I have proved you wrong about:
So you were wrong about that.
3.wrong about the “king” thing
They’re are more, but...yea I did prove you wrong. A bunch.
“Do you honestly think that all conservative policy and efforts stop when Trump dies?”
No, this is counterintuitive to everything I’ve been teaching you about how government works.
I'll listen to your theory, though.
“You’re being a contrarian”
I’m correcting your inaccuracies. You are taking it personally, but these are facts and you have the facts wrong.
If you were speaking accurately or could back up your defeatist anxieties with facts, you would face fewer corrective statements.
“...how to properly use this site’s functions”
Quotations being inside quotation marks is confusing for you. Already noted that one above.
“I have nothing to learn from you.”
Enjoy those cave shadows.
Sorry, I refuse to continue responding to your uneducated garbage until you learn how to format your replies properly.
People aren't going to take you seriously if you can't put in the minimal amount of effort to learn how to properly use the tool you're attempting to use.
"I refuse to continue responding"
Thanks for telling me you aren't going to talk to me by sending me a really long message.
"People aren't going to take you seriously..."
I certainly haven't had this problem yet.
(you're the case in point, beeteedubs).
Still not using that noggin to learn new tricks, eh?
P.S. If you think that was a long message, you may have a learning disability.
"Still not using that noggin to learn new tricks, eh?"
Don't feel bad you fell behind, you're just confused.
I can help you with that, but leading you to comprehension is very much a horse to water situation.
i'm trying to keep these answers as simple and complete as possible for you, so which parts appear to you as "new tricks"?
"If you think that was a..."
is this more of your "not responding"?
you're not very good at it.
You're not very good at learning how to format your responses. I've met 13 year olds more capable of using this tool than you are.
I don't hang out with a lot of 13-year-olds.
I guess it's good you're learning something from them.
is your relationship with them appropriate?
It's sad that you're not. Pretty easy lesson to learn. Going completely over your head. Like most of the topics you attempt to comment on.
"...over your head"
Don't get too worked up, folks can't help but understand you.
the salient characteristic of your comments is their simple-mindedness.