this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024
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[–] [email protected] -4 points 2 weeks ago (37 children)

Again – no shot. Not in FPTP. You virtue signaling every 4 years has never and will never change that.

That is incorrect. Lets say the polls show, Green 15%, Democrat 40%, Republican 45%, and the Greens say, "We'll endorse the Democrats if and only if they do X." You have not addressed why this is not a viable strategy at all. Saying "no shot" doesn't make it true.

Yes you did. You agreed that that only Trump or Kamala will be president after this election. Don’t backtrack, there’s a reason I insisted on these answers.

That's not the same thing. You're conflating "being able to win this election" with "being able to ever change things." It's possible to change things without winning, and it's possible for future elections to be different. You're taking a much more limited claim and expanding it to a much larger one that I never agreed with.

Again, why would you not wail on the walls in the room with less fire? What an absurd stance…

If anything, it'd be better to wail on the walls in the room with more fire, to die quicker. But the point is that that doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is escape.

Again, you already agreed she is the better option of the only 2 outcomes that will happen. Don’t twist my words ;)

And as I already stated, "better" does not mean "acceptable." In the same way if you push a vegan into saying beef is better than pork, that doesn't mean they consider beef an acceptable food.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 weeks ago (29 children)

You have not addressed why this is not a viable strategy at all.

Because you haven't demonstrated it to be a viable strategy...

Can you give examples of this tactic playing out favorably in the past? How does your 3rd party vote materialize into meaningful, actionable pressure on the Democrats? Why am I not surprised you didn't say "We'll endorse the Democrats / Republicans if and only if they do X."?

It's possible to change things without winning.

Not under FPTP.

If anything, it'd be better to wail on the walls in the room with more fire, to die quicker. But the point is that that doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is escape.

If the only thing that matters is escape, then the only thing that makes sense is choosing the scenario that's most likely to allow for it. Which is to move to the area with less fire. This should be absurdly obvious.

You can't have both. If you choose the room with more fire then you're admitting that your whole position is a facade and you're actually just a deluded accelerationist. Which we both know you aren't.

And as I already stated, "better" does not mean "acceptable." In the same way if you push a vegan into saying beef is better than pork, that doesn't mean they consider beef an acceptable food.

If you think both of the only 2 possible outcomes are unacceptable, then acceptability is a moot point. Better and worse still exist, and you already agreed on which is which.

[–] [email protected] -4 points 2 weeks ago (27 children)

Because you haven’t demonstrated it to be a viable strategy…

Can you give examples of this tactic playing out favorably in the past?

Parties are always looking at how to attract or retain voters. It's very intuitive that if a significant number of people defect from a party, the party will be reconsidering the issue that caused the break. I don't think this needs to be proven.

Why am I not surprised you didn’t say “We’ll endorse the Democrats / Republicans if and only if they do X.”?

Why would I? Are you suggesting that trying to influence the Republicans to become an acceptable party is a viable strategy?

If the only thing that matters is escape, then the only thing that makes sense is choosing the scenario that’s most likely to allow for it.

...what? I thought your whole reason for caring about the "more comfortable fire to die in" is because escape was ruled out entirely.

If you think both of the only 2 possible outcomes are unacceptable, then acceptability is a moot point.

No, it isn't. Unacceptable means unacceptable.

[–] Rhoeri 4 points 2 weeks ago

Dude… you are getting wrecked here. You should seriously start thinking about finding something else to do with your time. Because this Isn’t working out very well for you.

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