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No evidence of mortality though.
So where did they get their mortality figures?
Maybe ask yourself that.
What you're doing is colloquially known as "sealioning".
Science literally does not get much better than that. Plus the decades and decades of studies there are showing that smoke — in general — causes cancer.
Do you think it's the nicotine in cigarettes which is causing people to die? That that's why the mortality figures from cigarettes is so high? Or could it be that inhaling smoke is unhealthy?
You're demanding that I present to you where the chart I linked got their figures from, saying you absolutely refuse to believe there's any connection to increased mortality in any method of using cannabis — even the one where you INHALE SMOKE. How am I supposed to do that? I don't have access to their data. I have access to the same data that I presented to you. But if we want to pursue your query as to where these mortality figures might come from, well, obviously they're at least from the increased risk of cancer from smoking. I've said this several times but I suspect that if every single person that was involved in that study had actually used edibles instead of smoking, there would be much less mortality, if any.
So I don't understand what exactly you're protesting here. Because the most popular method (well, it might actually be edibles or vaping already in some places where it's legal) is smoking and smoking causes cancer. It feels like you're adamant that smoking cannabis magically makes smoking healthy. Which feels subpar compared to your normal rhetoric.
No. No I am not.
I am asking for where they got their mortality numbers.
It's clear you don't know and you're just guessing. I can only surmise because you want cannabis to be that deadly.
Hey man, I like cannabis too, but it is true that ignition based delivery systems(smoking) I think just generally cause cancer.
That's not the issue. The issue is that their mortality numbers are suspect. How could they possibly know that all of those people died of lung cancer because they smoked cannabis? Especially when Cannabis is illegal in the UK where that chart is supposed to be from? I would like some actual evidence. So far, all the evidence I can find goes back to a pyschopharmacologist called David Nutt who seems to think cannabis is dangerous but won't show his sources either.
I'm guessing it's all estimated numbers from statistics. Personally, I'll always recommend dry herb vapes or just getting regular THC vapes from more reputable brands, or shit make your own vape liquid if you think you can do it on your own(although I hear this way can be risky).
What statistics? Because I've looked and I can't find any.
I don't know why either your or the other person are just assuming this is true based on nothing at all.
I'm guessing the claims of cannabis potentially giving some people cancer, come from the estimated population of cannabis smokers, which is probably going to be lower than the current population of tobacco smokers, and then finding out how many people died from smoking(ignition based delivery systems that are basically what's to blame for cancer), and then just extrapolating from those two points that there's probably gonna be some extremely regular smokers of cannabis who've gotten cancer. Of course cannabis being WAY less addictive than nicotine means that the average cannabis smoker in general is still unlikely to develop cancer when compared to the average tobacco smoker, but the very exposure to smoke just increases your chance of developinng cancer anyways when compared to somebody who doesn't smoke anything.
Like I think it's just common sense. The other guy may have made a more specific point that is wrong though, idk, I just skimmed the convo
That the thing. You're guessing.
This is not supposed to be about guessing.
They do not reveal the source of their numbers and any searching I do goes back to David Nutt, who does not explain where he got the data.
You both need to be more skeptical about this sort of thing. Even if cannabis can lead to lung cancer that doesn't mean this data is anywhere near accurate.
What do you mean even if?
Smoke from burning that plant isn't somehow magic and different to all other smoke.
Inhaling smoke can lead to cancer.
Now you’re just evading the point.
I'm not evading anything. Your entire argument throughout this submission has ultimately whittled down to a disbelief that inhaling smoke can have adverse health effects and, yes, cause cancer.
Why say "if"? It's not "if" - it is a well-established fact of biology.
You may as well be saying "if the world really is a sphere", or "if climate change is real".
Nope. My entire argument has been that their source for mortality figures is highly suspect.
Stop the sealioning.
Firstly, there's nothing suggest they're suspect.
And secondly, back to what I'm actually talking about, you're clearly trying to cast doubt on whether breathing in smoke is bad for you. There is no "if". Smoking does cause cancer.
And it may shock you to find out that cancer does indeed cause death (it's true, cancer really does cause death. I can give you sources on that if you like).
Apart from the fact that, as I said, they come from David Nutt, who won't say where he got the numbers from. Why that isn't an issue to you, I don't know.
I am doing no such thing. If you're going to lie about what I am saying directly to me, this conversation is over.
Read the study.
You are doing such thing. You've repeatedly sidestepped it, and keep using language to cast doubt on it.
I want you to tell me right now that breathing in smoke, unequivocally, causes cancer, and therefore death.
Again, this is not a thing in doubt. It's not an "if". It's an established fact.
I have read the study. Both of you have told me to read the study. I did. I don't think either of you did or you would quote what supports the chart's claim that there is a significant mortality risk due to using cannabis.
The study simply does not show where this information comes from.
Don't tell me to read the study when you have not.
Does inhaling smoke cause cancer, yes or no?
Why are you evading this so much? Why do you seemingly not believe that inhaling smoke can cause cancer? It absolutely does.
Now that is some irony. You've been evading my one claim this entire time: the mortality numbers are suspect, something I was saying before you even replied to me. No, I'm not going to move on to the lung cancer thing until my issue is addressed first. I'm not going to just drop what I was talking about initially and talk about what you want to talk about instead.
You also evaded what I literally just said- that you didn't read the study you told me to read.
Do you see yourself when you look in the mirror?
The entire time? You've mentioned it to me once. You say the numbers are suspect. You're free to start your own peer-reviewed study to prove that. I await the findings.
Answer the damn question: does inhaling smoke cause cancer or not?
Why is this so difficult for you? What's with the evasion? It's a one word answer.
Now you're just lying. I mentioned it to you over and over again. What a silly thing to lie about. It's right there in the comments.
I also said this to you:
Which you have now done once again. So this conversation is over.
Read the study. Then look at the references.
Why can't you accept that inhaling smoke causes cancer? Why are you evading this simple yes or no question so much? It doesn't take long to type out a yes or a no.
Come on mate, this isn't hard. Inhaling smoke causes cancer. You're sounding like a climate denier or antivaxxer when you're being this blatantly anti-science.
You literally asked how cannabis can kill, were given an answer (smoking is bad for you), then refused to accept it.
The lenghts you go to to avoid admitting you said/did something that might be considered silly.
That is the first reply you made. I then explained no-one is saying that cannabis is killing people — admittedly having forgot the mortality stat on the chart. The mortality stat doesn't mean cannabis is "killing" people.
Then you start your inane sealioning, which you continue up until yesterday, at which point you blame me and @[email protected] of "not reading the study" and it "not having sources", but you keep referring to Nutt's study, when it cites it sources, which you clearly haven't gone and read, which I've linked quite a few times now.
What I'm betting you did is read the cover of this link: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)61462-6/abstract saying "they don't say where their numbers are from". That's like reading the back-cover of a murder mystery and saying "it's dumb, they didn't even resolve the whole murder!"
If you actually log in and read the FULL TEXT, you will see the data.
They source several different studies for different citations. I've done the work for you and here's the most relevant ones.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=50ba3efb0204557af6b762141f94c9a68cb9e291
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert-Gable/publication/14984972_Toward_a_Comparative_Overview_of_Dependence_Potential_and_Acute_Toxicity_of_Psychoactive_Substances_Used_Nonmedically/links/557613d908aeb6d8c01aea8d/Toward-a-Comparative-Overview-of-Dependence-Potential-and-Acute-Toxicity-of-Psychoactive-Substances-Used-Nonmedically.pdf
They also explain just how they've weighed all the data:
So no matter how much you want to sealion and pretend you weren't wrong and didn't say anything silly, I have offered you the data several times. And this all ignores the fact that you keep ADAMANTLY IGNORING a question I've put to you more than a dozen times; do you accept that a lot of cannabis use is SMOKING and that SMOKING causes increased mortality?
What? I've been arguing squid for days in this thread.
Yes. Smoking causes increased mortality through increased rates of cancer, and smoking is thr most commonly used method of consuming cannabis.
That's exactly what I've been saying, and you argued Squid as well, so I tagged you.
Now he's ran from the convo, and a mod told me to drop it.
What I did drop is my respect towards squid
Apologies, I misunderstood when I saw this in my mailbox, which is why I deleted my comment!
They have excited a desire for to the this conversation to end. At this point, your borderline harassing them. Please let it go.
Fair enough.
Just really irks me when someone pretends like they "won" the debate while leaving.
"Don't play chess with a pigeon. They will just shit on the board and knock over pieces."
And it irks me because I really had faith in him, and now the blindly ignorant hypocrisy they've displayed here has basically ruined one of the biggest posters on Lemmy for me. Eh. Too bad.
Thanks for the warning instead of just banning, that's some good modding. I respect that.
"I declare I have won the debate. Goodbye."
Nah. It's fair enough to call them out on their bullshit.
Leaving one comment is not harassment. And if they really feel harassed, the block function is always available.
All I wanted was a one word answer to whether smoking causes cancer/death. Apparently a dozen long-winded comments about stuff I was never talking about in the first place was easier.