There has been significant discussion in recent weeks regarding Meta/Threads. We would like to express our disappointment with the negative and threatening tone of some of these discussions. We kindly ask everyone to engage in civil discourse and remember that not everyone will share the same opinions, which is perfectly acceptable.
When considering whether or not to defederate from Threads, we're looking for a decision based on facts that prioritize your safety. We strive to remain neutral to make an informed choice.
First, there seem to be some misconceptions about how the Fediverse operates based on several posts. We’ve compiled some resource links to help explain the details and address any misunderstandings.
Fed Tips , Fediverse , ActivityPub
Initial Thoughts:
It seems unlikely that Meta will federate with Lemmy. When/if Meta adopts ActivityPub, it will likely affect Mastodon only rather than Lemmy, given Meta's focus on being a Twitter alternative at the moment.
Please note that we have a few months before Threads will even federate with Mastodon, so we have some time to make the right decision.
Factors to Consider:
Factors to consider if Meta federates with Lemmy:
Privacy - While it’s true that Meta's privacy settings for the app are excessive, it’s important to note that these settings only apply to users of the official Threads app and do not impact Lemmy users. It’s worth mentioning that Lemmy does not collect any personal data, and Meta has no means of accessing such data from this platform. In addition, when it comes to scraping data from your post/comments, Meta doesn’t need ActivityPub to do that. Anyone can read your profile and public posts as it is today.
Moderation - If a server hosts a substantial amount of harmful content without performing efficient and comprehensive moderation, it will create an excessive workload for our moderators. Currently, Meta is utilizing its existing Instagram moderation tools. Considering there were 95 million posts on the first day, this becomes worrisome, as it could potentially overwhelm us and serve as a sufficient reason for defederation.
Ads - It’s possible if Meta presents them as posts.
Promoting Posts - It’s possible with millions of users upvoting a post for it to trend.
Embrace, extend, and extinguish (EEE) - We don't think they can. If anyone can explain how they technically would, please let us know. Even if Meta forks Lemmy and gets rid of the original software, Lemmy will survive.
Instance Blocking - Unlike Mastodon, Lemmy does not provide a feature for individual users to block an instance (yet). This creates a dilemma where we must either defederate, disappointing those who desire interaction with Threads, or choose not to defederate, which will let down those who prefer no interaction with Threads.
Blocking Outgoing Federation - There is currently no tool available to block outgoing federation from lemmy.world to other instances. We can only block incoming federation. This means that if we choose to defederate with our current capabilities, Threads will still receive copies of lemmy.world posts. However, only users on Threads will be able to interact with them, while we would not be able to see their interactions. This situation is similar to the one with Beehaw at the moment. Consequently, it leads to significant fragmentation of content, which has real and serious implications.
Conclusion:
From the points discussed above, the possible lack of moderation alone justifies considering defederation from Threads. However, it remains to be seen how Meta will handle moderation on such a large scale. Additionally, the inability of individuals to block an instance means we have to do what is best for the community.
If you have any added points or remarks on the above, please send them to @[email protected].
Thanks for highlighting the real issues.
People that keep mindlessly talking about EEE are doing more disservice than Meta itself.
Most people don't have a clear grasp of the technical concepts, keep talking about defederating something that doesn't exist yet, keep copy-pasting the same things over and over, and this slows the conversation about the fediverse philosophy, the real problems and the possible solutions.
The fediverse is it's in infancy, this could be a great chance to find some of its underlying issues and make it more resilient and healthy.
I despise seeing it wasted with mindless or disonformed copy-paste.
Ironically, even that's exactly the kind of behavior people here hate in Meta's platforms, but they keep perpetuating it here themselves.
People are jumping on the EEE bandwagon because it's spooky, but they're forgetting that as cool as the Fediverse is, places like Mastadon and Lemmy aren't Meta's primary competitor, Twitter is.
From my limited experience developing platforms, I'd guess that the only reason they're associated with the Fediverse at all is because ActivityPub was the fastest way to minimum viable product, and using an already available open standard means a lot less litigation from the elongated muskrat. It's not some long con, it was just the path of least resistance.
I have my own theory as to why - the Digital Markets Act in the EU: https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-and-open-digital-markets_en
The interoperability is the big one. Since Threads isn't currently connected to the wider fediverse, that's probably one reason why they're not in the EU yet - because it's currently in violation of the Digital Markets Act. This also means that fears of "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" are likely overblown. Extending ActivityPub without working in tandem with the standards authorities to ensure interoperability means that they'd be (once again) in violation of the DMA.
I'm not saying Facebook is innocent. People actively say Facebook is malicious (not without cause, mind), but really - like all corporations - Facebook is self-serving. Facebook will always do the thing that is in their own best interest; they're sociopathic but not evil for evils' sake. And the DMA gives clear evidence that EEE is not in Facebook's best interest.
Let me quickly quote selected sections of the act itself:
Simply:
Content should not be restricted to just your site
You need to allow third-party apps
You must publish your API publicly
Failure to comply causes:
Initial fine of up to 10% of the company’s total worldwide annual turnover (or up to 20% in the event of repeated infringements)
Daily fine of up to 5% of the average daily turnover
Systemic infringements can cause the EU to break up the company entirely
The law has teeth. It started to take effect in May, but there's a period of time before compliance is expected (likely we won't see much compliance until 2024). The route of least resistance for Facebook is to adopt ActivityPub and allow third-party ActivityPub apps like Fedilab to interface with Threads. They can't make changes to the protocol because then they won't be compliant with the Digital Markets Act. I wouldn't be surprised if Instagram and maybe even Facebook itself start to federate as well.
I just hope it will apply to everyone and not just people in Europe, since they would be only ones that are protected by the act technically.
laws governing the internet from large entities like the United States and the European Union generally effect everyone because losing either of those markets and having to verify where a user is from is a massive hit to growth and profitability. for example, i was able to do a data request mandated by the EU's GDPR and got my data from reddit and got my data back from reddit the other day.
whoah, really? Nice.
It's by no means universal, it is certainly possible for companies to change how their stuff works in Europe and the us, for physical products it's more common for there to be differences but still things like requiring usb-c charging ports is benefitting American consumers too.
But yeah in general internet things and large companies have the same thing everywhere.
This really makes zero sense, considering that they launched without activitypub support and are only planning on adding it later.