this post was submitted on 21 May 2024

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Here's one for the nature lovers (lemmy.world)

submitted 7 months ago by PugJesus to c/politicalmemes

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[–] PugJesus 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I’d like to see a poll that ask if the US should be supplying weapons to a military that primarily have used them to kill women and children.

If there are studies that suggest a majority of people

I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter seriously. I despise the position we're in, and support the removal of all military and financial aid from Israel. Let me finish cooking and I'll see if I can find a poll worded specifically enough to suit your criteria.

EDIT: It's actually in the Pew Poll, I just missed it, it would seem. On the issue of military aid specifically, and not just whether Biden is currently taking the 'right' path or a 'not Israeli favorable enough' path...

https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024/03/PRC_2024.3.21_Israel-Hamas_2-04.png

36% in favor to 35% opposed in the general population

25% in favor of military aid to 44% opposed in the Democratic party

[–] [email protected] 4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter seriously. I despise the position we're in, and support the removal of all military and financial aid from Israel. Let me finish cooking and I'll see if I can find a poll worded specifically enough to suit your criteria.

Okay, but is that enough to convince you that the majority of Democrats are not fans of how the Biden administration is handling the situation?

And surely if the majority of constituents disagree with this policy, it makes sense to protest against it?

I understand that a lot more than Palestine is riding on the election. What I don't understand is why people are upset at his constituents laying out perfectly valid criticism. What I don't get is people on Lemmy conflating criticisms with propaganda, and attempting to silence those criticisms.

Maybe a better person to be upset at is the elected official, who just so happens to be ignoring the majority of his party to support an ultra conservative government?

Maybe if all the people who "despise the position we're in" voiced that criticism instead of silencing others, the administration would have to change their stance...

Maybe that's the whole point of protesting in a democracy.......

Edit: on a side note, I would still like to see what happens if you asked those same people who approved of military aid, if they still approved aid knowing that it was going to be used to mostly kill innocent women and children.

Labeling it Israel vs Hamas is not accurate, as 70% of the casualties have been women and children.

[–] PugJesus 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Okay, but is that enough to convince you that the majority of Democrats are not fans of how the Biden administration is handling the situation?

We already went over "how the Biden administration is handling the situation", in which the numbers are even.

This point was specifically brought up, separately, as approval military aid, which yields a different answer.

You can say that's dumb, and it is, but that's democracy. People don't always have consistent opinions.

In any case, while I still have doubts as to whether it would be an electoral advantage for Biden to change positions, I'm more hopeful about it. And, as I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm in support of him changing positions anyway, under the justification that if it's "Damned if you do, damned if you don't, might as well at least be damned with the moral choice and not the immoral one"

My position was (and to a lesser degree, still is) just that there is not a CLEAR electoral advantage to it - it's not as simple as "Biden does this ONE THING and he WINS", especially since Gaza in particular and foreign affairs in general rate low on voter's concerns this electoral cycle.

And surely if the majority of constituents disagree with this policy, it makes sense to protest against it?

It would make sense to protest against it even if a plurality didn't disagree. It's a citizen's duty to protest, even if they're the only one who disagrees.

I understand that a lot more than Palestine is riding on the election. What I don’t understand is why people are upset at his constituents laying out perfectly valid criticism. What I don’t get is people on Lemmy conflating criticisms with propaganda, and attempting to silence those criticisms.

Because a lot of people on here are continuously repeating 'Biden bad' on every issue, or redirecting every issue to Gaza, and then pushing "VOTE THIRD PARTY" or "DON'T VOTE" or "DEMS AND REPUBLICANS ARE JUST THE SAME", and those of us who are in line for the camps under a Trump presidency find this, at best incredibly privileged, and at worst, actively destructive, viewpoint as just a mite concerning.

Before it was Gaza, it was unions on here - by the rhetoric of many of the same players who are beating the Gaza drum on Lemmy now, you'd've thought Biden was the worst union-buster in US history, instead of a moderately-pro-Union president who's been better for labor than any other administration in probably a good half-century. And if the Gaza genocide ceases to call people's attention before the election, they'll move onto something else.

I would argue that not only is cynicism towards certain common arguments justified in that situation, but actively beneficial towards filtering the noise.

Maybe if all the people who “despise the position we’re in” voiced that criticism instead of silencing others, the administration would have to change their stance…

Maybe that’s the whole point of protesting in a democracy…

Man, I'm not against the protests. I'm fully in support of them.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 7 months ago

already went over "how the Biden administration is handling the situation", in which the numbers are even.

I think I disputed your interpretation of that data.

This point was specifically brought up, separately, as approval military aid, which yields a different answer

No I was utilizing that information to prove that your argument was semantic in nature.

You can say that's dumb, and it is, but that's democracy. People don't always have consistent opinions.

Lol, yes democracy is all about silencing your constituents..... This whole argument started over the validity of criticizing the president. You have done nothing but try to refute that in the most "enlightened centerist" way possible.

In any case, while I still have doubts as to whether it would be an electoral advantage for Biden to change positions, I'm more hopeful about it.

Ahh yes, electoral advantage is surely the only reasoning we should utilize when deciding if genocide is an appropriate foreign policy....

I'm in support of him changing positions anyway, under the justification that if it's "Damned if you do, damned if you don't, might as well at least be damned with the moral choice and not the immoral one"

And yet, you still aid people spreading propaganda that implores people to science criticism. Sure.

it's not as simple as "Biden does this ONE THING and he WINS", especially since Gaza in particular and foreign affairs in general rate low on voter's concerns this electoral cycle.

I never made any claim close to that? You can fight your own straw man all by yourself.

It would make sense to protest against it even if a plurality didn't disagree. It's a citizen's duty to protest, even if they're the only one who disagrees.

Okay, then what is the point of your pedantic rebuttal?

Because a lot of people on here are continuously repeating 'Biden bad' on every issue, or redirecting every issue to Gaza, and then pushing "VOTE THIRD PARTY" or "DON'T VOTE" or "DEMS AND REPUBLICANS ARE JUST THE SAME", and those of us who are in line for the camps under a Trump presidency find this, at best incredibly privileged, and at worst, actively destructive, viewpoint as just a mite concerning

And did I make any of those claims? Or are you just conflating all criticism as such?

Before it was Gaza, it was unions on here - by the rhetoric of many of the same players who are beating the Gaza drum on Lemmy now, you'd've thought Biden was the worst union-buster in US history, instead of a moderately-pro-Union president who's been better for labor than any other administration in probably a good half-century.

Again, I didn't make any of those claims. Maybe people are driven to this level of criticism because they feel centerist are trying to mute all criticism from within the constituency?

And if the Gaza genocide ceases to call people's attention before the election, they'll move onto something else.

Lol, you talk about a genocide as if it's a frivolous complaint and you call other people privileged?

Man, I'm not against the protests. I'm fully in support of them.

So you're for the protest, but against people voicing their opinions on Lemmy? You have just spent several paragraphs equating the criticism against genocide as just a distraction for the election cycle.....but you support it?

Congrats on being the most "enlightened centerist" I've come across on Lemmy.

I only hope that one day you muster up enough empathy to lose sleep over stating " if the Gaza genocide ceases to call people's attention before the election, they'll move onto something else. "

Go kick rocks