this post was submitted on 10 May 2024
548 points (97.4% liked)

World News

39108 readers
2190 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]

Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
quinten
NewsAutoMod
jordanlund
Tenthrow
little_cow
lemmyAtom
FlyingSquid
548
UN assembly approves resolution granting Palestine new rights and reviving its UN membership bid (apnews.com)
submitted 6 months ago by return2ozma to c/world
129 comments fedilink hide all child comments
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] OccamsTeapot 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Nobody is trading them for anything stop calling them hostages. Call them detainees. As usual the claim you've made against Israel is wildly exaggerated.

We can break down the terminology issue.

We have people who are not charged with any crime (ie innocent), who are taken against their will and held in captivity until their captor either decides to let them go or somebody breaks them out.

We could call it anything we want. "Innocent people held by someone/an organisation against their will." Both the Israelis taken on October 7th and the Palestinians held without charge are "Innocent people held by someone/an organisation against their will." The same thing has happened to them.

So do we call them all hostages or all detainees?

They couldn't play nice in the neighborhood without helping trying to blow anything up so they don't get to play outside with their friends.

You're a lawyer, right? Is this a fair description of someone who is not charged with a crime?

[–] JustZ 0 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That's an insightful, direct question. Truly appreciate it.

We're speaking of people held without charge under administrative detention. It falls short of rote internment only by the fact that it's intended to and generally is reasonably temporary. Read your own article. It's like a revolving door.

There is no fairly analogous type of criminal detention. The closest is custodial arrest, but that's way more temporary in scope; charges are either filed or not in western criminal procedure usually within hours, commonly known as "48-hour hold," with a process for a longer hold if there's a component of irreparable harm, that's commonly known as a "72-hour" hole. After charge, the accused have a right, at least where I am, to a probable cause and bail hearing, and maybe to post bond, and then the accused is released pending trial.

These folks aren't accused, they are suspects albeit still being investigated, but there's enough suspicion to justify holding them longer than what would be typical in the usual criminal setting, i.e., a 72 hour hold, given the potential for irreparable harm if the suspect gets released without charges and goes back to the suspected criminal enterprise, which in this case is international terrorism, hostage taking, rocket attacks, and mass shooting. Most of them though aren't being wrongfully detained. It really sucks. As someone who very early did a 180 on a career of prosecuting cases, and have since only ever defended the accused, I hate what this administrative detention means to well-founded, hard-won notions of fairness and justice. But it doesn't break humanity. I know there's no justice for those wrongly caught up in it. That doesn't make it unjustified.

My state pays wrongful incarcerees restitution by a statutory formula; locking up innocent people is inevitable, so we account for it. If Gaza had diplomatic status and would get out from under the utter tyranny of Hamas, nice things like that could exist, instead of just surviving on charity. I believe the good will of the western world will endeavor to indemnify the inevitable victims of such inherent unfairness. Not going to negotiate with terrorists on it, that's for sure. When a state collapses after all its institutions are coopted by violent extremists and criminals, this is roughly what reconstruction looks like, right? It's scène à faire. We both agree it's offensive to behold.

I'm rooting for democracy.

PayWall WaPo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/05/01/israel-gaza-detainees-high-court/

Archived at https://archive.ph/txOw5

Paragraph three is what I'm citing for the proposition that Israel is redeemable. Their government has a Supreme Court and in it exists a right of habeas corpus. The detainees you are talking about are, in a significant way, having their day in court right now. Even the detainees at Gitmo, except maybe one or two stateless souls no-one will take, got their day via habeas corpus.

[–] OccamsTeapot 1 points 6 months ago

We're speaking of people held without charge under administrative detention. It falls short of rote internment only by the fact that it's intended to and generally is reasonably temporary. Read your own article. It's like a revolving door.

Yeah I did read it. It's often for longer than 6 months and even longer than a year, I even saved this graph to show you...

Since 2017 there has generally been 200+ in for longer than 6 months, sometimes much more. Each order lasts up to 6 months so it's not so short, in fact Hamas' hostages released in the cease fire a while back had been there much less time. I don't think that makes it OK in either case. Like the hostages still there now are like the Palestinians who've had their detention extended once.

These folks aren't accused, they are suspects albeit still being investigated, but there's enough suspicion to justify holding them longer than what would be typical in the usual criminal setting

Except this evidence isn't shared so how do we know this? Imo if there's no charge and you hold someone for a long time (over 48 hour seems reasonable) then these people are simply hostages. Like if Hamas said that the current hostages are suspected of aiding the IDF in "criminal" activity and provided no details would that be acceptable to you? It would not be to me.

I hate what this administrative detention means to well-founded, hard-won notions of fairness and justice

Absolutely, as everyone should.

I know there's no justice for those wrongly caught up in it. That doesn't make it unjustified.

I mean by definition it kind of does make it unjustified. Nobody, Israel and Hamas both included, has the right to keep people captive without charge. An opaque military justice system and evidence-free accusations don't make what Israel is doing in any way justified.

Paragraph three is what I'm citing for the proposition that Israel is redeemable. Their government has a Supreme Court and in it exists a right of habeas corpus.

Absolutely it is redeemable if it releases the "Innocent people held against their will" immediately and gives restitution as you said. Until that day this is functionally identical to what Hamas did, imo.

Interesting article, thanks for sharing! Whst happens to these people disgusts me, truly.