this post was submitted on 25 Dec 2023

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I might move again. (Or not) (lemy.lol)

submitted 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]

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I moved from Lemmy.ml because I liked the name of Lemmy.world and it ran a newer Lemmy version which meant I could make communities. I moved from Lemmy.world because they defederated from piracy communities they didn't even host (but for some reason still kept the small piracy community they DID host) From thelemmy.club because I couldn't see the Hackintosh community from there (probably defederated) Now I spent some time looking on join-lemmy.org and checked out some instances and this (lemy.lol) instance seemed good, so I chose that.

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[–] [email protected] 119 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

I'll say it again and again, decentralization needs to be something the end user doesn't notice, signing up to Lemmy should be like signing up to a centralized service with the servers running things being decentralized and the info redundant so servers can go down without having any effect on the service.

Let the admins decide if they don't want to host content from certain communities, let the users decide if they want to block communities and users.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I don't think that'd work, with Lemmy being a federated model, not a fully decentralized one.

How do you handle the actual login? Does that mean every server has access to your password hash? Or do you overhaul the account system to use something like a private and public key, with the user needing to store and transfer the private key to every device they use?

And what happens if two people register with the same username on two instances that aren't federating? Do they somehow need to still communicate with all other instances in the network they operate in, to prevent that from happening? Because the alternative I see is the login being random in some way or tied to the instance, in which case you still lose the impression of a single service.

If I'm not mistaken, right now anybody could host a non-federating Lemmy instance, if they just wanted a small private community in this style. To my understanding, that's the idea behind federation, and a founding concept of Lemmy - it's not a giant service distributed across trusted servers, but a network of smaller communities that communicate with limited trust.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

There are no instances anymore with this system, it's the data hosting that's decentralized, the front-end looks like a centralized website so you would go to Lemmy.com instead of whatever instance you signed up on.

Imagine Reddit but there's no central authority and instead of using a service like AWS it's just people providing storage space and bandwidth and they can decide not to host content from certain communities on their server, but from the user's point of view they wouldn't know where they're pulling the data from.

So no, you couldn't have two users with the same username. The user database could easily be shared by all storage providers or the database could be randomly split and you would have to mention what part of the database your info is stored on when logging in. When creating your account (where it checks for doubles on the whole username list hosted on all servers) you're given a random third credential that you need to mention when logging in so the service knows which servers host that part of the user database (all info including the database would have triple redundancy).

Right now a website's data might not be stored on a single server so that's already how things work, the difference is that all the different servers are owned by the same company (like Amazon or Google). In the backend the servers communicate together to provide the data to the users so it feels like everything is hosted in the same place.

TL;DR: The best way to fix things is to make it work like it does for any other websites but to only decentralize the hosting instead of also decentralizing the communities.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Sounds like what you want basically is not Lemmy.

It also raises some pretty big issues, like who gets to moderate communities? Right now you make a community on a specific instance, you follow that instance's rules, so the instance host has authority over the community. If you disagree with the instance's rules, or with the way the community is ran, you can make a community on another instance, or even make your own instance with your own rules.

And from the other side, there need to be people with the authority to remove communities, and remove people/posts across different communities. Right now that's the responsibility of the instance hosts, to my understanding - content is hosted on a primary instance, and stored through federating instances, so the primary instance has a responsibility to keep it clean of illegal material. Who would have this power and responsibility if instances aren't differentiated? Sounds like the best case is giving trustworthy people an excessive amount of power, and the worst case is the entire network being shut down due to distributing illegal content and being effectively impossible to moderate.

You also didn't address the issue of passwords - currently it's a pretty big deal when hashed+salted passwords leak, considering those passwords compromised... The comparison with AWS is flawed - when using AWS, you're trusting them, because it's a big company with a reputation to keep. The situation seems very different when it's random enthusiasts with highly differing views, and without a central authority to verify them (though there are probably too many to verify anyways)

And you propose that anybody can join the network and receive users' passwords? On top of that, you're proposing that you need to also know the "server" your data is stored on and supply that with logging in? Sounds like a really annoying friction point for the user.

I really feel like you're approaching this from the wrong direction, suggesting Lemmy should abolish the very structure it's built on for one you'd like more, but I think it could be possible to make the experience nicer without going to those extremes.

Maybe it'd be possible to let multiple instances have authority over an account, without changing its home instance, so that if your original instance goes down, you can keep the same account. And to reduce friction from communities being made across multiple instances, some way for communities themselves to federate/combine would be nice, and is probably being considered by people smarter than me.

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[–] MashedTech 17 points 11 months ago

I subscribe to this view.

[–] camelbeard 9 points 11 months ago (1 children)

After seeing this post, I needed to check what server am I on right now anyway, didn't even remember, so I guess that's a good thing.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

You're still dependent on a single point of failure, what I'm talking about is doing like any other website but instead of using a provider like AWS, you've got a bunch of people all over the world providing storage space and bandwidth and all data is stored on three servers in different locations at all times so there's basically no reason for the website to ever crash.

If you were to access Lemmy from a web browser you would need to remember what server you're signed up to because that's the website you would need to go to, you wouldn't be going to "Lemmy.com" or whatever.

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[–] Sky_Lobster 82 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Honest question... What's the difference? I just signed up with .world without really doing much looking around first...

[–] MentalEdge 69 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Some instances are running on better servers than others, have staff that fix issues quicker and attend to updates sooner.

For example, .world is still on v18 while the rest of the threadiverse has mostly moved on to v19.

Some instances defederate certain other instances, so in some cases you might end up finding that a community you subbed to gets disappeared by the admins of your instance (lemmy.ml did this to ani.social a while back). Whether there are valid reasons goes case by case, sopuli.xyz for example blocks instances that are for porn, and I like it that way.

Though outward federation is a bit borked on there atm, so I'm using my alts...

But really, it doesn't matter that much. If the grass looks greener, you can hop over the fence and see for yourself, and then hop right back if it turns out it wasn't.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 11 months ago

While I'm not on world, I also hold off on upgrades. Lemmy is still Alpha, after all.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

I only moved from World because I wanted a smaller instance (and maybe because of stability). And from thelemmy.club because it blocked the Hackintosh community. And from lemmy.ml, which was my first one I moved because I heard the alligations that the admin was pro-chinese government.

[–] GrammatonCleric 17 points 11 months ago

"Allegations". Nice.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Moderation and politics. Many in Lemmy don't like ML's stance on issues, including banning and moderating dissenting opinions. World won't defederate from Threads. Etc. Despite no major user difference, Lemmy is a much more "active" vs passive community in reinforcing their beliefs in what's right. It's why many migrated here to begin with.

[–] TserriednichThe4th 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Threads?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

Meta's/Zuckerberg's microblogging service, also runs on Activity Pub (the protocol that allows instances of any given service to communicate with each other, basically the backbone protocol of the Fediverse).
Many Fediverse instances decided to defederate Threads because of who's behind it and because they're afraid Meta's ging to do to AP what Google did to XMPP.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 11 months ago

To add: and because they don't want the content they create to become a money maker for a company that allows abusive organizations to stay online.

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[–] [email protected] 45 points 11 months ago (7 children)

laughs in solarpunk

We are fucking tiny, and everyone as far as I know is federated with us because they can't be bothered. Our server is run well, though we do get a bit of unscheduled downtime (though the biggest one was due to a fucking hurricane)

[–] [email protected] 25 points 11 months ago

slrpnk.net 🤝 pawb.social

federated via apathy

[–] [email protected] 8 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Everyone forgets about pawb.social too. Even furries seem to forget it exists lol.

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 11 months ago (1 children)

i fucking love decentralized services

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[–] [email protected] 35 points 11 months ago (1 children)

.ml works great for me. What problems did you have with it?

[–] stevehobbes 11 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Mostly the people running and modding it are insane.

[–] platypus_plumba 15 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Thank God I don't give a fuck about Lemmy dramas. If it works and I like the content, I'll stay.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

Oh you mean the communism?

I am communist

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[–] AteshgaRubyTeeth 34 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I’ve created my account at .world, anything I missed? Seems to work fine for me

[–] [email protected] 9 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

They started defederating with piracy and trans instances and kept pushing a Discord server so I took off.

Oh and also Beehaw defederated with lemmy.world, and I wanted to see that content.

Second edit because I was reminded lemmy.world is still planning to federate with Threads, which I also wasn't okay with.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 11 months ago (6 children)

What trans instances have they defederated?

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[–] AteshgaRubyTeeth 4 points 11 months ago (4 children)

So this would mean I wouldn’t see some piracy related content? Because I’m subscribed to some piracy communities and I think I can see the content.

I’m not really up to date with how the links between the different Lemmy instances work

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[–] cashews_best_nut 33 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (6 children)

I had one of my posts on AskLemmy deleted for being "offensive". It was asking a silly question "Are Brits the Americans of Europe?". Some saw the lighthearted side. The professionally offended got it deleted.

Over-moderation will kill Lemmy instances. One of the reasons Reddit became as big as it did is due to very light-touch moderation verging on "absolute freedom of speech". It was refreshing and 'alternative' compared to the increasing sanitisation of the Internet.

Unfortunately Reddit-rotted Zoomers have jumped from the heavy-handed Reddit modding to Lemmy and will quickly fuck up any attempt to grow the platform. Because they don't remember/know how early Reddit worked.

They're trying to moderate Lemmy like it's a billion-user platform when it's a few hundred thousand.

[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago

Ah yes it’s the next generations fault. What a unique take on the situation.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago

Yup. The platform should feel alive.

I remember on Reddit when people were trying the limits and quirks of the algorithm, and you would wake up one day and your feed was filled with something totally unrelated. A few hours later and it went back to normal.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Every platform should have some mechanism to remove troublesome moderators.

[–] The_Vampire 12 points 11 months ago (2 children)

The whole point of the Reddit-style was that subreddits could be controlled by moderators and prevented from slipping into the same old tired town square-esque mess that arrives with popularity. I guarantee a mechanism to remove moderators would result in niche communities that get a surge in popularity winding up with the original moderators ousted because all the newcomers don't understand the community.

If you don't like how a community is run, you can start your own for completely free. That's how this works, you shouldn't be able to commandeer a community from the people who started it. If there's a truly problematic moderator, the new community will grow quickly.

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[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I understand the issue of “it’s a Fediverse only if the network is diversified.” And “it’s difficult for new users to understand.” But if we also go down the path of making the system like a standard centralized network we defeat the purpose of the Fediverse.

Our issue isn’t a “we need to copycat our predecessors” it’s a “we need to explain how we work in a simple enough way no one could possibly misunderstand.”

I’ve tried various methods of explaining it, and I think the issue is half bad explanations and half a lack of interest.

We need to also start pressing our strengths. The Fediverse, as it’s nature of an AGPLv3 project, is ad free. We also don’t have the weight of megacorps deciding what is allowed to be shared because of said ad revenue.

Avoid talking about the technology. Boast our numbers, we’re 2 million strong on Lemmy and 14 million Fediverse wide. Avoid confusion, offer help, and press our advantages.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Meh, just need to find an instance that seems friendly and stable enough then try to keep it afloat.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago

I think I'll stay here if there are no problems. That's why I used the word "might"

[–] [email protected] 19 points 11 months ago

what’s this supposed to mean? i’ve never had an issue with .ml

[–] [email protected] 19 points 11 months ago (5 children)

I'm still on lemmy.ml instance since my first day here! And this is the only account I have.

We don't know what is going to happen tomorrow... But, at least for awhile, I have no regrets at all!

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[–] Roflmasterbigpimp 13 points 11 months ago (1 children)

I don't get it ._. Why move?

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[–] ThePyroPython 12 points 11 months ago

(Cries in feddit.uk)

[–] ZeroTHM 12 points 11 months ago

"If you don't like how we do it, go make your own" is the biggest cop out.

[–] HexesofVexes 7 points 11 months ago

What we really need is an app with an ordered account list that allows you to view all the content from those accounts and when responding/contributing uses that order and picks the top one that is able to.

[–] fastandcurious 7 points 11 months ago

Lemmy.world has been very slow for me lately

[–] [email protected] 7 points 11 months ago

STOP IT... Get some Help

[–] [email protected] 6 points 11 months ago (5 children)

lemm.ee is at the bottom of the ocean right now because of federation issues after upgrading to 0.19. I’m mostly shouting into a void. Can anyone see this comment? I know my comments in .world are not getting seen.

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