I’m hoping the /s was for the whole post. Lol. Person-first language is problematic in many more ways than also being poor grammatically. Person with X indicates that the person has a medical affliction like Covid. Autism isn’t an affliction; it’s a more-common-than-you-think phenotype of humans that’s been in existence for centuries if not longer. Like red hair or blue eyes. I’m not sick; I’m just different. I’m a correct zebra not a sick horse.
this post was submitted on 30 Jun 2023
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Reaches the end of the post
"Quick, take the downvote back!"
Oh you got me steaming until I read the last line 😂 well done!
I keep my autism in my backpack everywhere I go.
I heard a pocket size version of it being out recently
In some states you can just put it on your driver's license and it is stored ona database somewhere. Sounds convenient
It's between the phone and the phone case, isn't it?
there was about to be a whole paragraph written until i saw "/s"
Damn it; I was about to go off on you 🤣
Damn this page took a long time to load what with the influx of new users today, that was a long time sitting with my blood pressure rising before I got to the /s lol
That being said, the latter description, people with autism, is widely considered to be more politically correct.
I'd heard (from an autistic person) that it's generally the other way around.
I may be mis-remembering some of what he said, but he seemed to indicate "with" is usually used a bit more for temporary, or maybe treatable conditions. He described it in terms of his identity, he is autistic.
...
Just spent 10 minutes thinking about all of the above and then got to your "/s". Feeling like I took a lot of the above too literally... Ya got me!
Noting the /s:
It's so weird the NTs are about stuff like this. It reminds me about the "Latinx" when it came about.
- posts completely sarcastic post in autism subreddit *
We come in different flavours. I don’t get sarcasm at all unless it’s spelled out like OP. But my autistic uncle is the most sarcastic MF you’ll ever meet
I'm not ND, but I have a child who is ND and I hang out in the spaces. I don't think even between autistic people there is a consensus. I say "autistic person" because I consider autism to be a fundamental trait like blindness or height. We don't say "person with blindness" or "person with height" we say "blind person" and "tall person". Autism is something you are born with and something that cannot be changed about you, so thus it's "autistic people" for me, but I've seen autistic people who've been offended by "autistic people" and wanted people to say "people with autism". I'm not sure it's battle that can be won if there's not consensus within the group about it.
Is it weird to have different preferences depending on the language I speak?
In English I really prefer Autistic person/identity first, over person with Autism/person first. The last seems to me a bit too pretentious for me, as if you really need to pay so much extra attention to what is wrong with me.
In my native Dutch however I somewhat more align with person first. Basicly you have three options: -ik ben Autistisch/I am Autistic -Ik ben een Autist/I am a Autistic -ik heb Autisme/I have autism The first and last option I don't really mind wich one is used, although to describe myself I would use the first. But the middle one. Well Autist I have heard multiple times used as a curse word. (Dutch tend to use a diseases as curses to describe people) And well that does not help you feel good about yourself, or coming out of the Autism close for one thing. But even outside of people who do this, it made me avoid using that word to describe myself. As I do not want to be associated with the stereotype that belongs with that curse.
so yeah, I always find this an interesting but slightly difficult to explain question. And shows once more; words matter.
It's funny, I'm from Denmark where we also have those three ways of referring to autistic people but I much prefer the equivalent to the first and second option in Danish. Autism isn't really used as a curse word here though it is used in a derogatory manner by some to mean something is stupid or odd.
Without reading any of the comments, I'll share this...
Personally, I use "I'm autistic," not "I have autism." It's so ingrained in how I've experienced & interacted with the world. There is literally no aspect of my personality, emotional processing, etc. that hasn't been significantly touched by it in some way. However, I can see how others may not have that same relationship, and a presumption of "autistic" can be problematic to those that prefer "have autism."
As with anything, always ask what the other person prefers, and kindness goes a long way.
I'm interested to see what others wrote on the subject. :-)
NTs, you can't "be with" autism like how you can't be with your own identity. But you can be with some sense and understanding, so please (although some NDs may disagree- in which case, well, we can't tell them what they are lol, respect is needed here, so let them... have it I guess -[pun intended])
Don't have autism but am in the field specifically with younger kids. We have switched from saying autistic kids like "I work with autistic kids" to " I work with kids with autism." Curious if one feels better to you as someone who has autism.
Personally I prefer being referred to as autistic as "having autism" makes it sound like a disease to me. In my experience what autism does to me is to make me who I am. It's a collection of traits that we have labeled autistic that is part of shaping my personality, for better and worse. Some traits are annoying to have sure, but everyone has annoying traits(to have or for others to have), mine are just incidentally put in a box and labeled.
The counterargument I've heard is that I shouldn't let it control who I am, therefore it's something I have, but that sounds silly to me because it is me. I tried all my childhood not to be weird and it only made me more insecure and unsincere. I'd rather own it than pretend it doesn't "control me".
It must be said though, it's not something I care very much about and would probably not have noticed much hadn't I been corrected by a social worker when I referred to myself as autistic and explained why it shouldn't be used.
I mean, it controls us like having blonde or brown or black hair controls us. Trying to act as if you have another hair color requires immense effort and resources and might damage your hair - think of a dark brown-haired person trying to appear blonde and have nobody notice.
You have to continuously dye so people won't see roots. That will damage your hair really badly. You will have to bleach your pubes. Either shave or bleach all your body hair. Your eye-brows. And even then: if you have darker skin, people will doubt blonde is your real hair color, because they know it's a rare (or impossible) combination. Also, bleached hair never has the variety of color tones natural hair has. For blondes, single hairs can be reddish, light brown, really white blonde etc, and it's the mix that makes blonde.
You can never pass as a natural blonde when you bleach your hair unless people are inattentive. Yet no one complains about someole being a brunette controling them...
I feel that is also true for being autistic. It requires enormous effort to appear NT, it will never be perfect or natural, and it is very damaging to your mental health.
I don’t think adjective-first is letting it control who I am. It’s just one of my qualities. I am kind. I am clumsy. I am intelligent. I am creative. I am autistic.
Autistic kids is way less offensive to this ND.
Autsim is not an accessory or something that can disappear. It is a fundamental part of who we are, at least in my book. (others may disagree, but I met more autistic people who agree with this.)
I tried to imagine myself as non-autistic, and I just couldn't. I love my special interests, and my passion for learning. My literalness has given me a great sense of humor. What would I be without them? A different person, and probably a very boring one.
You can't untangle the person from autism. Autism is how my brain is wired. It does affect my personality because of that, and I get so mad (and fad for the kid!) at the same time when I hear parents talk about their real kid being trapped inside the autism cage or whatever word they use. Those parents will never be able to see their kid for who they are, they will always see them as deficient compared to who they imagined their kid to be.
You should re-read through the whole thread, some latter messages explain perspectives you may be interested in. I use the Spanish equivalent of saying that I'm autistic, much in line with 'autistic person'.
I have been. It's interesting to read the feedback as many of the kids I work with are preschool age and unable to share what they would prefer to be called and the parents are often so overwhelmed with just receiving the diagnosis that they haven't formed an opinion about this particular topic yet.
Definitely want to find a way to bring this into my place of work and share, but will need something a little more formal than "internet NDs said..." Certainly presents a personal and professional topic of research for the future.
If you want more solid references, the vast majority autistic adults in the US prefer identity-first language ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36237135/ ), and it's also the norm for autism activists and self-managed autism organizations ( https://autisticadvocacy.org/about-asan/faq/ ). Since this is a recent trend, it's likely that it'll extend to other anglo speaking countries too.
Mind you, the language itself is a point with very little practical consequence, but the philosophy behind this debate, that is, whether the differences of autistic people must be respected and accepted and properly integrated, or if autistic people must be forced to conform to norms that were established without taking them into account, conditions our whole lives.
Appreciate the sources!
I think it really depends on the perspective you use to understand autism. If you take a medical approach, then kids with autism would be appropriate because it's a kid with a disease. It's like describing someone that has caner would be a person with cancer, not a cancer person. If you take a social approach, then kid with autism sounds absurd like describing someone as kid with Hispanic rather than Hispanic kid. A person that is autistic is fully autistic. It's integral to whom they are. A person that has cancer wouldn't change whom they are if the cancer were cured. However, a person that is autistic would be a different person if their autism were gone just like a Hispanic person would be different if their Hispanic were gone.
I can't speak for everyone that's autistic, but it seems that the trend is going towards a social understanding. A lot of people are proud they're autistic and don't view autism as a disease. Instead, they see it as a personal characteristic that is fundamental to their being, and they call themselves autistic to help others understand how they function and their mental culture. I tell others that I'm autistic, not because I want them to know that I'm broken, but so they know that my actions aren't symbolic of neurotypical behaviors. For example, looking away from someone's eyes doesn't mean I'm not paying attention. It means I'm paying so much attention, that looking at their eyes would be distracting. But, it makes sense that they would think I'm distracted because that's how neurotypical people communicate. So, I don't tell people I'm autistic so they know that I'm broken or have a disease, but so they understand that I'm different and to consider that when they interact with me.
If the children are referred to as such too, then I feel like those children may need to spend more time and power to accept themselves, idk- I remember my autism being almost never reminded to me when I was a kid
I'd love to expand on the why if poss. I prefer Autistic person person probably, only because I feel that 'person with autism' kind of infers it's something you could obtain to me, rather than park of your inherent makeup. But why does that change for a collective?