You can always follow up when someone says “states rights” with “to do what?”… because the answer was “have slaves”.
this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2023
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Another interesting note I bring into the states rights argument is that the south wanted to force the north to send back escaped people and were actually sending people into the north to kidnap black people, many of whom were never born slaves.
So yeah the north wanted the right to gives rights to the people in it, and the south thought that didn't apply to black people.
So yeah the north wanted the right to gives rights to the people in it, and the south thought that didn't apply to black people.
I think that gives a bit too much credit to the vast majority of Union citizens. Yes there were some groups of Quakers who actually believed in freeing slaves and protecting their rights, but that was a minority opinion .
The majority of people in the union disagreed with slavery for economic and political reasons that were unattached to the morality of slavery. Even progressive politicians like Abe Lincoln who wanted to free slaves, also wanted them to be shipped to the Dominican Republic or Africa afterwards.
Abolitionist v radical abolitionist and emacipationist v radical emancipationist.
History is fun like that..
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And "limited government". Limited to do what?
That’s an easy one.
It means “disassemble all checks and balances, strip the people of all power and authority, and concentrate the power and authority into the hands of a chosen party-aligned dictator or oligarchy.”
Small government doesn’t get any smaller than a totalitarian dictatorship.
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To own slaves I guess.
Many of them still have privately held slaves. As you can be forced into slavery as punishment for a crime and all but Louisiana, North Carolina, and Arkansas have private prisons.
state's rights
wanted the federal government to override the rights of free states
made slavery mandatory rather than leaving it up to the states
tried to flat-out steal entire states using violence
Like every conservative, when they talk about freedom they're only talking about their freedom to do what they want, and their freedom to make you do what they want using violence.
IMHO the bigger gotcha on the "states' rights" lie is that the Confederate constitution gave states no more rights than the US constitution, while specifically denying one: the right to abolish slavery within their borders.
the biggest gotcha is asking back
"the state's rights to do what?"
Ok, I know Marx was a contemporary of the civil war and wrote about it but every time I see him with a sensible take on it I’m just like “aren’t you in Germany then and it’s a massive pain in the ass to cross the ocean at the time. Why are your takes so sensible”
Marx sent a letter to Lincoln, and Lincoln's staff responded via Ambassador Adams. It's a really interesting moment in history that's been buried by US Red Scare ideology.
from wiki on Adams:
Part of his duties included corresponding with British civilians, including Karl Marx and the International Workingmen's Association.[7] Adams and his son, Henry Adams, who served as his private secretary
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1864/lincoln-letter.htm
Oh man that would be a fun tidbit for conservatives when they try the old "accckshully Lincoln was a Republican who fought to free slaves so it's the Democrats that are the racists!"
"Ok, so how do you feel about Lincoln working with Karl Marx, you know, Mr.Communisim?"
Didn't he edit a newspaper? I suppos having takes was kind of his job.
But muh heritage... /s
The word “heritage” is a disgusting one these days, thanks ~~conservatives~~ fascists
They have ruined heritage, patriot, the Gadsen flag, and damn near the US flag for me.
I am not American so I never understood that phrase. A state's rights? Who gives a shit about a state? Isn't everything about human rights like it always have been?
well, i think the idea is generally that Americans like issues to be decided at a state level rather than federally due to general "small government" principles, like they can trust their state level government to be more specifically beholden to their interests. this is usually in a right wing context, but not always, like famously California has much stricter environmental regulations than the rest of the country.
Which begs the question: why did they join a union in the first place if they wanted decentralized government?
Federalism is a complex topic. Some things are done better In a central way, and some are done better distributed.
Uniform regulation of commerce and military protection is really efficient.
At the time, there was no practical way for one body to make meaningful policy to manage both new York and south Carolina at the same time.
You can basically look at what the EU is doing and that's why the states did it too, just starting with "shit we need money, a navy and soldiers" rather than "can we all just agree on food standards and currency?”
It's the 10th amendment. All other 9 amendments and many thereafter are in relation to human rights.
And states rights and human rights can actually go hand in hand, as seen by state legislatures that have passed assisted suicide, same-sex marriage, and legal cannabis laws. It has also been used to ensure electors cast their vote for the nominee or candidate who received the most votes from the people.
Unfortunately it's also been co-opted as a racist, misogynist dog whistle.
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I may be an anarchist, but I can admit Marx has some banger quotes.
I tend to consider him right in basically all his criticisms, misguided in formulating the solutions.
Presumably he ran into the trouble a lot of generous, intelligent, and honest people have, they assume everyone is basically like them other than circumstance and stress.
And, obviously you can trust a fellow socialist to run the vanguard states, right?
They get it. Heirarchy bad, racism bad, sexism bad, he's been over this!
Or perhaps he was simply, like everyone, merely a product of his time. The workers of his day were barely literate, every state other than America and France (depending on what exact year we're talking) were absolute monarchies, etc etc etc.
Under no pretense
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Interesting to hear that trying to annex places against the will of the people there is bad. Don't think everyone claiming to follow Marx followed that rule lol
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