this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2023
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Linux

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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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Some examples:

  • Android
  • Alpine: Alpine Linux is built around musl libc and busybox
  • glaucus: A simple and lightweight Linux distribution based on musl libc and toybox
  • Chimera (alpha stage): Chimera uses a novel combination of core tools from FreeBSD, the LLVM toolchain, and the Musl C library
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[–] [email protected] 127 points 1 year ago (3 children)

"I use Linux as my operating system," I state proudly to the unkempt, bearded man. He swivels around in his desk chair with a devilish gleam in his eyes, ready to mansplain with extreme precision. "Actually", he says with a grin, "Linux is just the kernel. You use GNU+Linux!' I don't miss a beat and reply with a smirk, "I use Alpine, a distro that doesn't include the GNU coreutils, or any other GNU code. It's Linux, but it's not GNU+Linux.

The smile quickly drops from the man's face. His body begins convulsing and he foams at the mouth and drops to the floor with a sickly thud. As he writhes around he screams "I-IT WAS COMPILED WITH GCC! THAT MEANS IT'S STILL GNU!" Coolly, I reply "If windows was compiled With gcc, would that make it GNU?" I interrupt his response with "-and work is being made on the kernel to make it more compiler-agnostic. Even you were correct, you wont be for long."

With a sickly wheeze, the last of the man's life is ejected from his body. He lies on the floor, cold and limp. I've womansplained him to death.

[–] [email protected] 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have read this a hundred times and it's still as beautiful as the day I first read it.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago

First time for me — I look forward to finding it again someday

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

brought tears to my eyes

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago (4 children)
[–] [email protected] 112 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It’s only called UNIX if it comes from the Santa Cruz region of California, otherwise it’s a sparkling POSIX.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)
[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Let me rephrase :-)

Linux Is Not UniX

🙃

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I can see the value of this. Linux \not \in Unix, and also Linux \not = Unix.

[–] xohshoo 33 points 1 year ago

given Android, it might even be that most linuxes aren't GNU/linux

When Android came out, it really hit this and the limits of the GPLvII home for me

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 year ago

And not all GNU is Linux! Beyond the world famous GNU Hurd, there's also Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, and Nexenta (GNU/Illumos, which is the OpenSolaris kernel).

I think the most esoteric of them, though, is GNU Darwin (GNU/XNU). Darwin is the open source parts of OS X, including its kernel, XNU. There used to be an OpenDarwin project to try to turn Darwin into an actual independent operating system, but they failed, and were superseded by PureDarwin, which took a harder line against anything OS X getting into the system. GNU Darwin took it one step further and removed just about all of Darwin (except XNU) and replaced it with GNU instead.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 1 year ago
[–] zloubida 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Android is exactly why I think it's important not to ditch GNU in GNU/Linux. I don't care about codelines, I care about the philosophy.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

Philosophy probably did play a significant role: Google could have chosen BusyBox, which is GPL licensed, if their concern was solely the GNU user space’s comparative bloat.

[–] GustavoM 15 points 1 year ago

Yes, officer. This blasphemer right here.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (3 children)
  • Chimera (alpha stage): Chimera uses a novel combination of core tools from FreeBSD, the LLVM toolchain, and the Musl C library

Who was the incredible smart person to name a new distro with a similar name to another, older, Linus distro? ChimeraOS

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

Honestly when I first read that I just assumed that ChimeraOS decided to go in an new direction. Also it's not like ChimeraOS is some small super niche distro it seems relatively popular.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Also, on their main page:

Chimera aims to eliminate legacy cruft where possible to deliver a modern, general purpose, fully featured operating system that is simple but complete.

While on their Community page:

Our primary means of communication is IRC. [...] We ask you to refrain from using advanced Matrix features, such as reactions, editing, message removal, markup and multi-line messages while using the chat. This is because users on IRC side will either not see that or it will clutter the channel. Stick to simple, plain text messages, like you would if you were on IRC.

Do you think they're aware of the irony of relying on crusty old IRC while touting about Linux having legacy cruft and their code being better?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@entropicdrift would you mind elaborating how the choice of a chat protocol is connected to technical aspects of an operating system? i feel like i'm not galaxy brain enough for that

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

It's just an ironic contradiction of philosophy.

Over on the OS side they're dedicated to making a fresh start and leaving behind crufty old standards, but on their chat server they've limited their chat tech to the capabilities of IRC, a chat protocol so old it pre-dates Linux.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

IRC is perfect, that is why it no longer evolves.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

The fsf website actually separates distros. There is GNU/Linux and nonGNU/linux

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

Its nonGNU/linux

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Blasphemy!

/s

[–] Presi300 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Alpine's great, it's my go-to lightweight/server distro, just really wish they had an option for glibc, musl is just way too limiting for a daily driver...

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Doesnt play ball with Zerotier anymore.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

The GNU project gave birth to and spread the idea of free software worldwide. Would they not have started with the GNU operating system (they wrote a LOT of code) and doing activism then free software would surely not exist in the magnitude it does today.

The Linux kernel would not be this mainstream at all. Spiritually, this makes every popular free OS a GNU system. Even BSD was only freed because Stallman explicitly requested it. Credit where credit is due.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Arguably yes, but none of that is a good reason to put GNU in the name. I don't think even Stallman argued that Linux distributions should use the name GNU to give credit to GNU's influence.

The reason always given is a different one: it's because distros traditionally took a lot of code from the GNU project, which is a different matter. That reasoning does make some kind of sense, even though I don't fully agree.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not that they "took a lot of code from the GNU project", it's that "Linux" is the kernel, which is just the core of the OS, by itself it's not very useful. All the stuff around it that constitutes the rest of the operating system, like the command line and the vast majority of the commands you might run from there, are the GNU project. And I'm not even getting into desktop environments.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

GNU wants people to believe that Linux distros took the GNU project, replaced the unfinished GNU Hurd kernel with Linux, and called it a day. But distros collected a lot of other stuff too.

XFree86 and various window managers (back in the early 90s there were no free/open source desktop environments yet; KDE (1996) was the first I think, or at the very least earlier than Gnome. I don't know what you mean by "And I’m not even getting into desktop environments.": the way I see it, the topic X and everything running on it doesn't exactly support your point.

Editors vi and vim are not from GNU, and neither are mail clients Pine and Mutt, and the popular pager less.

There was probably quite a lot of BSD code in Linux distributions too.

So, I agree that calling a Linux distribution Linux is perhaps not entirely correct, but calling it GNU/Linux gives too much credit to GNU and too little to all the other people who wrote software that got included in Linux distros. GNU thinks their collection of software is essential enough to be included in the name, exclusively, and I don't agree. Don't get me wrong, GNU does deserve respect, and a lot of it, for all their accomplishments and contributions to the free source world in general and Linux distributions more specifically. But their insistence on the name GNU/Linux doesn't seem the best way to get that respect. It has always felt somewhat childish to me.

At the same time, no one is stopping the GNU project from creating their own operating system distribution using their userland tools and the Linux kernel, and calling it whatever they want, including GNU or GNU/Linux or GNU Guix System or whatever, I don't care. It would be quite hypocrytical if they wouldn't include Linux in the name though, since including Linux is equivalent to how they're asking others to include GNU.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

XFree86 and various window managers (back in the early 90s there were no free/open source desktop environments yet; KDE (1996) was the first I think, or at the very least earlier than Gnome.

As a point of historical interest, XFCE actually holds the title of the oldest extant DE project; it beat KDE to first release by about a year.

KDE was also famously not entirely open source when it was founded (Qt was closed until v2), which is why GNOME was founded (initially by the GNU Project) exactly for this reason.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I take GNU Linux to be GNU-flavoured Linux. Musl and Busybox still behave like GNU, since they were written as alternatives to GNU (at least busybox). Alpine belongs in the same category as regular Linux distros - unlike Android.

More important than this distinction though, is the philosophy behind them. Despite the difference in license, Musl and Busybox still value freedom, like GNU. Android is a monstrosity - a wolf in sheep's clothing. A malware masquerading as open source.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

This takes the alternate history to a crazy new level.

GNU was written to mimic / replace UNIX—POSIX specifically. The standard core utilities and the idea of a C library pre-date GNU.

BSD was already a complete and free UNIX system when the GNU project was started and long before the Linux kernel was conceived.

MUSL is in no way “GNU-flavoured”. It is an an alternative C library sure. That is what Glibc is. They are both implementations of the same standard. MUSL prides itself in being more standards compliant. What critics dislike about MUSL is that it is not enough like GNU.

BusyBox is an alternative to the standard UNIX userland. I think it is fair to say it is an alternative to the GNU utils as those are the most common but the history of most of these tools goes back further than GNU.

Would you consider FreeBSD a GNU-flavoured system too?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Aaaand Redox. Which is not Linux, but may some time in some Future replace it.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

🤞 I’d rather chew glass than deal with C again.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I really think the existing maintainers need to strengthen this. A microkernel sounds like a very good concept, and new college graduates often dont know C or even C++ anymore. Me included, if I would learn a low level language I see no purpose for anything but Rust

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

It’s unfortunate that Go has become so popular at the expense of modern system programming languages like Rust and Nim and Zig. Go is such a platypus: a compiled language that isn’t a proper system language.