Privacy
A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
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- Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn't great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
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- If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
- Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
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It seems like this might break the GDPR rules for consent:
Any element of inappropriate pressure or influence which could affect the outcome of that choice renders the consent invalid.
https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/consent/
or if the performance of a contract, including the provision of a service, is dependent on the consent despite such consent not being necessary for such performance.
https://gdpr-info.eu/recitals/no-43/
I’m not a lawyer though, so maybe a legal expert can chime in.
edit: the jury is still out it seems:
https://techcrunch.com/2023/10/03/meta-subscription-vs-consent/
I think you'd have a hard time legally saying that they have to provide a service to users when that service is paid for by selling access to users via advertising, even if the user refuses to allow that access. It would probably qualify as "necessary for such performance".
Having the extra option to pay to remove ads (while I think this price is ridiculously excessive) is a pretty reasonable compromise. Although it also feels kinda icky in the sense that it means you're essentially turning privacy into a privilege for the wealthy. So I dunno, it's a tricky issue.
I agree, but it's not like using Meta is mandatory. You can decide not to use their services.
just because you’re not using their service doesn’t mean they aren’t using your shadow profile
Indeed. I can't know for sure. But the GDPR is supposed to make that illegal.
That's a different conversation.
Techcrunch article is misunderstanding the meaning of freely given. It means not under duress and with full understanding. Paying for a service categorically doesnt contradict that.
However the odds of facebook explaining in plain english the egregious privacy breaches they do is unlikely so there's prob a get out there anyway.
Can't see how it breaches consent unless, as above they don't explain what they're doing to gather info for "personalised" ads.
Am lawyer, not gdpr /EU specialist though.
Of course, that just means you don’t see ads on Instagram/Facebook. They still collect your data, aggregate it and trade it with data brokers, so the ads you see elsewhere (not to mention prices you’re offered) will become more accurate. In fact, it’s not unlikely that the behavioural data of people who pay to opt out of being spammed with ads will be more valuable to data brokers.
Also, for those who don’t pay, the ads will get more frequent and annoying to induce them to pay. (See also: Spotify)
In fact, it’s not unlikely that the behavioural data of people who pay to opt out of being spammed with ads will be more valuable to data brokers.
True. This is why the AdNauseam extension doesn't simply "hide" ads, but it goes out of its way to actually simulate clicks for ALL ads, causing algorithms to be unable to more accurately profile you and making the pay-per-click model fall on its face. If everyone did that, advertisers would have to pay for completely meaningless clicks making it no longer worth it to advertise this way.
Though it's still not a solution to privacy, since it still gives some insight on your tastes by allowing them to know what websites do you frequently visit.
How much extra resources does running that consume?
This price is absurd, sure. Even if I trusted Meta, there's no way I'm paying that.
Having said that, they can charge whatever they want for the service. As company, their prices are up them.
I don't get why you (no OP specifically, but in general) put it as if you must pay or give up your rights. We can just not use Meta, as many of us already been doing.
GDPR should be there to protect and enforce informed consent. Not to remove people's ability to decide.
Why sholuld we regulate Meta's prices and not whatever other suscription service exists out there?
I haven't used anything Meta-related in almost 10 years and my life has failed to disintegrate. It's actually been lovely.
As absurd as the price may seem, that is actually about how much money they make from selling user data. Of course, given their track record I don't feel inclined to trust this "pinkey promise" of not selling the data in some form anyways.
Even if you do not have a Facebook account, you are still being tracked through Ghost Profiles.
So no, you can not "just not use Meta".
They are so ingrained in the internet, that you can not get away, no matter hard you try.
Ok, so I should use Meta services anyway guilty-free?
I'm not claiming I'm not being tracked. But in theory, the GDPR should have made that illegal (to my understading) as I'm in the EU.
If the law is just paper anyway, then what's the point of the discussion?
So it's time for our EU politicians to step up then....
Hey, US, where are you in this? We need you guys to get on board with the right to privacy...
HAHAHAHA
...we can't even get corporate money out of campaign finances...
US government here, we buy the data from parties like Meta to save on the costs of surveillance and to get around laws that prevent us from spying on citizens. It's not in our interest to legislate restrictions
Do they forgot about the meaning of the world "RIGHTS"? Doesn't feel very legal to lock users rights behind a paywall.
The thing is, using Facebook isn’t a right. They can charge for whatever, whenever, however they want. You agree to this when you sign up/access the site. You have the choice not to use it.
That’s what gets me with these comments/complaints. (Not trying to be mean). You don’t have to use facebook/Twitter/instagram etc. And the fact that people keep using these kinds of websites is beyond me, especially when they try to pull this kind of bs.
Facebook and Instagram, sure. But plenty of people are more or less forced to keep WhatsApp either because of people they want to be able to message that refuse to use anything else, or perhaps even because they need to be in some WhatsApp groups e. g. for work.
Communication platforms aren't like web browsers or operating systems where you can switch at will to whatever else works for you, you're more or less reliant on everyone you know also making the switch.
Exactly. Not to mention that, even if you don’t use Facebook, instagram, or WhatsApp, your data will still be hoovered up by Meta because someone who has your contact saved in your phone will inevitably allow one of those apps to see all your contacts.
Still doesn’t make it a right just because you feel forced into it lol. And yes, there are other alternatives out there, they just might not be very popular…
I feel like there is a balance to this.
- I hate all the stuff Facebook/Meta has done, but a service from a for-profit company will have a cost.
- At the same time, if you make the cost so excessive that no one will actually go for it, it's not really an alternative and rather a loophole for the law.
What makes more sense is to set the price point around equal to the amount made / user. I REALLY doubt that they are making $168 from each person per year.
I don't have the data with me, but would a quick and dirty total_revenue/total_users give a good estimate? Assuming total_revenue doesn't include other products like devices
in 2022, they made US$113bn from ads. They have approx 3bn users so thats about US$38 per user per year.
No one is saying they shouldn’t be allowed to run ads. But that they should be allowed to run highly specific and targeted ads is not by any means a forgone conclusion.
Television, newspapers, ads out in the “wild” and whatnot. All manage without individualizing ads. And Facebook could as well. But it’s more profitable to say to hell with our users privacy, let’s individualize the shit out of those ads.
That’s the problem.
well i mean, you dont have to use their platform and if you do you dont have to pay for this
The company:
- We can provide you a free for you service paid by advertising.
Users:
- No, I want privacy.
The company:
- Ok, paid service then.
Users:
- ...
I would feel a lot better about it if the price was anything close to how much they actually make from people's data. Something like $30 per year according to Facebook themselves, in 2019.
But yeah, the notion that people should be entitled to all these online services completely free of charge while also not allowing it to be paid for through advertising is ludicrous.
I don’t mind paying a fair fee for online services, if that means I get some/more privacy, because of no/less/non-tracking ads. I have a few donations set up for some services that I use regularly. I also made a paid account on some commercial services „just because they’re ad free“ even if their free tier would suffice for my usage.
But how are those ads gonna pay them ~16€/month/user on these services? It just to deter people from using this option. Heck I can get a decent vServer and self host several services for that price! No way Meta pays/earns that much per user!
You could have advertising without creepy tracking surveillance. Contextual ads, based only on the content of the current page and nothing else. Still relevant, still makes money
The problem in this has never been (at any point) advertising.
Advertising is problematic too but not because of privacy issues.
Imagine you would need to pay for your right to protest or free speech as an example. This is brutal.