this post was submitted on 22 Sep 2023
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Hello everyone,

so I'm not actually from New Zealand, but from Europe and I'm currently very worried about the rising popularity of facism and alt-right politics in my country and europe in general. I'm very scared of experiencing physical violence and I'm now very seriously considering moving to another country before the facist parties are elected into power. One of the countries I'm considering is New Zealand, because there wouldn't be that big of a language barrier and also because I haven't heard of a lot of problems with facism in New Zealand. So I wanted to ask you if my judgement is correct and what the political situation regarding the alt-right is like in New Zealand.

Thank you for reading. I really appreciate your help :)

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You will naturally get a fair bit of variance to opinions on this from us Kiwis, so rather than replying to any of the poster's below I figured i'd just add my own two cents separately. You're essentially asking for the vibe, not the truth - and realistically your own experience is going to be the most valuable way to determine what it is like for you.

NZ doesn't have any out & out fascistic parties anywhere close to political power, but there are still right, and far-right political ideas prevalent in our discourse along with other pet issues that would not be misplaced amongst most other alt-right movements worldwide.

Many Pākehā will argue against this - but my contention is that from most measures NZ is a fairly racist country. Naturally, given it was a colonised country, this is particularly noticeable against Māori, but it also impacts Polynesian people, and to a lesser extent also to Asian, Latin and African peoples.

The 3 right-wing parties in / close to parliament all use dog-whistle style politics to gain support by attacking initiatives that would attempt to redress the imbalance in social outcomes - health, education, justice etc. Some parties bring out that rhetoric most loudly come election time (NZ First), but the two elected parties (National, Act) do it so casually that it sometimes gets missed how much they use it as a crutch to solidify their support base.

Many of the other pet issues for the alt-right are thankfully still fairly niche here. Though the anti-trans as a gateway to anti-LGBTQ is getting stirred up as well. A lot of extra stuff kicked off around the covid-19 pandemic, and there's a lot of misinformation, disinformation and people peddling bulls%&t to suckers for money.

Mostly this initially comes in from foreign grifters or religious fundamentalists which is to be expected I guess, but eventually we seem to produce local versions of the same. Supporting that effort there is also a group co-opting free speech movements as a basis for importing more alt-right, far-right and fascist speech into regular discourse. That's a complicated movement as some people involved probably are genuinely in support of free speech as an ideal, but its certain that others use it the same way all fascists do.

I think that's a reasonable snippet of the cultural far-right politics here, but probably another thing to realise is that New Zealand has had a neo-liberal economic consensus since the mid-late 80s. This means that economically our "centre" is actually right wing. Low tax, low government intervention, small government in terms of GDP, selling off of state assets, lots of user pays style things, minimal support for those unable to work etc.

To be sure there's loud arguments that Labour^1^ are socialist commies, all about traditional big government etc, but really them and National^2^ are economically two sides to the same coin. Particularly as neither will do anything to increase taxes on the wealthy, neither will do anything significant to address inequality, or improve housing affordability or have policies that will actually allow the country to reach pollution related targets etc.

^1^ nominally centre-left, but IMHO more centre-right thanks to the left splitting off from them after the neo-liberal reforms of the 80s, eventually mostly coalescing into the Greens

^2^ nominally centre-right, but IMHO they're 3 parties smudged into 1, centre-right, religious fundamentalist and far-right

[–] Mojojojo1993 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Don't even know where I'd look. What exactly are you looking for ?

We have quite a bit of gang culture here. Two main political parties are labour and national. It's kinda difficult to compare them to other parties.

Is say national are basically the conservative party of the UK. Labour are kinda central leaning towards socialism but not really. I'm not great with politics. They mostly want to shaft you.

Seems pretty safe away from fascism but it does creep up everywhere. New Zealand has a lot to do with China. It's main trading partner and is pretty much in bed with China. Similarly with Australia. New Zealand can't exist without Australia and China.

That may or may not have an impact

[–] ChapolinColoradoNZ 6 points 1 year ago

Agreed, left and right politics are a lot more centre leaning here in NZ than in other countries (it seems) and I like that about it. Either extreme is bad for any society because they tend to get a lot alike the further away they get from each other. The fact is that it's becoming harder and harder avoid overseas influences though and more extreme narratives pop up all the time, on both sides. I hope we manage to stay away from extremism for as long as possible.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I live in Canada now (we have our own taste of fascism here), but have lived in NZ. It is actually quite a conservative country and the same forces that are driving far-right tendencies in Europe and North American are exerting their influence in NZ as well. The benefit over North America is they have a proportional representation system, and so governments are almost always coalitions and require across the aisle agreements. Pay attention to the rhetoric in the current election cycle (they go to the polls in about a month) and you will see how the political landscape looks, that will give you an idea of it is different from Europe in the ways that you want. Relocating to NZ long-term is not that easy, as there are quite strict immigration policies. Unless you qualify under a small category of in-demand trades or are under 30 and going on a working holiday it can be difficult to get a work visa or Permanent Residency. Also note, NZ is a bloody long way from anywhere and anything. The total country's population is less than most European metropolitan areas and so it might be a massive shift in lifestyle (for better or worse) depending on where you come from.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

To add to that last point, @[email protected], everything is bloody expensive here compared to Europe, especially essentials like fruits and veggies, housing, public transportation etc. A lot of things which you may take for granted in Europe, have to be imported here. Which means our cost of living is pertty high, and it's hard to save a decent amount of money.

And if you like your electronics/gadgets, you're in for a rough time thanks to the dollar conversion rates, import duties, shipping costs and lack of choice in local stores. Restrictions on Lithium Ion batteries makes it hard to get replacement batteries, or even import products containing batteries. This can be a big issue since many popular manufacturers don't have an official outlet here, so you're on your own if you are not using a mainstream product. Many overseas vendors even refuse to ship to NZ because of the restrictions.

Another major issue is the lack of jobs, whilst consequently having a scarcity of talent in many critical areas such as the medical sector. Frankly speaking, the medical care you get here is pretty subpar, and procedures not covered by insurance can be really expensive. For instance, I was quoted ~$6000 to get LASIK done here, so I decided to get it done in Asia instead, where it cost me only $2000. It's been an year now and I've had no issues and have 20/20 vision. Meanwhile in NZ, you have cases like these: https://wellington.scoop.co.nz/?p=155247 and https://futurism.com/neoscope/surgical-instrument-18-months , which isn't something you'd expect to see in a developed nation.

It's not all doom and gloom of course, and I'd say overall, our quality of life is pretty good (which is why many of use choose to continue to live here) but be aware that NZ isn't the paradise that international media outlets make it to be.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

My belief is that the issues with our public services (you note health) come down from NZ under-taxing, so not having the public funds to invest in those services. Don't believe the hype you see from N/Act or the NZ Horror etc. Our top income tax rates are low internationally, and unlike many other similar countries we do not have any wealth/capital gains taxation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's actually a massive issue that I saw in NZ. My in-laws and their friends profiting massively off rental properties with no capital gains, meanwhile blaming foreigners for the fact their children can't afford rent or housing. That being said, putting all geographic issues aside, Healthcare in NZ is significantly better served than in Canada (at least as far as family doctors go), but when we last visited this year, it seems to be a growing issue. Overall, I found NZ much more of a user-pay society than Canada. The fees aren't always high (like US healthcare, my god!) but there is no "free lunch" anywhere in NZ. Going to a community festival? Pay $10 for 15 mins to put your kids in the bouncy castle. That sort of thing is everywhere. I love NZ, and it is a beautiful place with wonderful people. However, there are two things I would say.

  1. It is a great place to visit. (Notice how the phrase stops there)
  2. Ive heard kiwis described as "clannish and distant" and I think that is an accurate depiction. Friendly when meeting, but high on impossible to make friends with.
[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah i've definitely heard that we're friendly without making friends. I wonder how much of it comes down to not feeling like there's much spare time - particularly for those people with kids.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I'm originally from Europe, The Netherlands, I feel it's going much worse over there than here. E.g. over there it's now common that high school kids have got knives on them to school. That was unheard of 10+ years ago. Even my direct family says it's better to stay here.

I've noticed people here are still much friendlier & relaxed than e.g. Europe.

No country is perfect, NZ is behind in things like infrastructure, but it's still a great place to live IMO.

[–] SouthernCross 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

As others have said, more central leaning. Violence is on the rise with gang activities and rising living cost when compared to yesteryear. Insaying that, I have not witnessed any gang related activities apart from their motorcycle convoys.

This Wiki article might help.

[–] Mojojojo1993 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Same. I'm not sure if gang violence is up. It's more touted but that could be because of election year

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Its a difficult thing to measure in general, and unfortunately the only widespread metrics available come from the Police and those numbers are challenging due to methodology changes, or their own agenda.

I think its probably true that gang violence is up, but that is and has almost always been gang on gang violence. I suspect there's a bunch of deprivation related crime that's being blamed on gangs, but is just down to people struggling to feed and house themselves.

[–] Mojojojo1993 0 points 1 year ago

Gang on gang can exist in a vacuum. Happy to have that as long as no one else is involved. They can just wipe each other out.

[–] waterbogan 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

We have facism and an alt-right here, but they are tiny, insignificant and basically present no physical threat whatsoever. What little violence I hear of from them is usually inter group, they tend not to hassle the general public mainly because they'd get smashed if they did. They are neither like nor respected here, and arent likely to attain any actual political power whatsoever. Violent crime and gang associated crime is an issue here though, and that will be far more of a threat to your safety here than the few far-right fuckwits we have here who are frankly regarded as a bit of a joke

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I disagree that they are tiny and harmless. They are quite organised both IRL and online and will be a significant factor in getting National elected in the next election.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I don't understand how Action Zealandia or Voices For Freedom will get National elected. You might want to look at what these groups believe, it's usually the opposite of what National, Act and NZ First want.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

While I agree our facist and alt-right contingents are rather small, I see the center-right embracing some of their slightly less overtly hate driven values and taking points.

I have similar concerns to OP

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I'm tired of the crazed notion that middle age women who oppose vaccination are somehow crypto-fascists, who are secretly working to advance the interests of the National Front and Action Zealandia. It's a Reddit fantasy that only exists because of the echo chamber in /r/newzealand where nobody can challenge their stupid views without being banned.

There are people on Reddit who think that Carl Bromley and Lee Williams are Nazis. These are just angry old men with out-dated views, who put all their energy into venting online, or trying to start movements that just die off after 6 months.

The overton window has shifted towards anti-immigration. 2 years ago anyone who's even slightly critical of immigration would've been called a fascist. But on Reddit this week, there was an anti-immigration thread that has 200+ upvotes. The person said that if we don't stop immigration, then housing will stay expensive forever, because the government can just bring in immigrants to fill new houses and apartments. This is bad for our country and it shouldn't matter what the tone is. Immigration just sucks and everyone knows this regardless of what they believe or who they vote for. I live in a shared house and earlier this year a whole Indian family moved in, with the screaming kid, her parents, and even the grandparents. I don't hate these people personally, but man do they talk loud outside my door after 11pm at night. They are like the Gypsies of the South Pacific. Always having a loud conversation and bringing their family woes into the ears of other tenants, as if they owned the entire house just because they rented 2 of the rooms.

I think it's time we realised that immigration is unsustainable. It just pisses me off at a personal level, I don't even need an ideology or a political viewpoint to be annoyed. Nobody understands this until you have to live with a child that was spawned from another man's cock, and the kid is banging on walls and crying right outside your stock hardware store bedroom door. It's unbearable, and it'll only get worse. Time to wipe off that **** eating grin New Zealand. You've got bigger problems than obscure political groups that mainly exist online.

There is a massively weird discourse in this country that exists on Reddit and Twitter - a big obsession with what online groups are supposedly planning. There are claims that far-right groups in NZ are preparing terrorist attacks, and that people have planned car bomb attacks (but without having a bomb or any means of making one). Then Kyle Chapman was arrested for owning a gun, but he's not even a part of any far-right group. Some Reddit Karen will somehow connect Kyle to a group though, and claim that the Rob Gray Life Centre is a terrorist training hub. Rangi Kemara is already suggesting this online because yes he really is that stupid, just another angry liberal on the internet spouting unfounded opinions.

There is no coordinated right-wing group that is taking over political parties and changing the discourse of society, things like anti-immigration sentiment are just occurring naturally as people learn the truth.

As a redditor would say:

I am LITERALLY for open borders and ethnic restaurants (Masala Dosa, YUM!) but I am honestly against unlimited immigration of 100,000 people per year, it's literally destroying the housing market for my whole generation!!!!1

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sorry Jeff but I have to disagree with you on some of what you wrote.

crazed notion that middle age women who oppose vaccination are somehow crypto-fascists ... [is] a Reddit fantasy

Your description of their beliefs isn't quite complete, you're missing some of the most critical stuff off the list of things they oppose:

  • "globalists", (eg bankers, politicians, corporations, academics, "the ruling elite", yadayada)
  • "gender ideology"

I've spent some time observing and talking to people in these movements and for the most part these two terms are usually dog-whistles for:

  • Jews
  • gays

Personally I wouldn't bother putting the "crypto-" in front. It's hard to spend any time in these communities without beginning to notice some of the really major similarities between their ideologies and the early stages of European fascism in the start of the 20th century. Those middle-aged women may not personally identify with the labels of "fascist", "racist", "anti-Semitic" or "homophobic", but the things they say align pretty well with those labels. Yeah I agree the terms of fascist, nazi etc are thrown around a little too freely by the online left, but sometimes you just have to call a spade a spade. For us on the left, "fascist" is shorthand for "authoritarian far-right" (in the same way "communist" can be shorthand for "authoritarian far-left"), and based on the things I've seen you and others associated with that movement write online, I am absolutely comfortable giving you the label of "authoritarian far-right".

There are people on Reddit who think that Carl Bromley and Lee Williams are Nazis.

Based off the many things he has said in his Youtube videos I am quite happy to call Lee authoritarian far-right, as well as a racist and a homophobe. If some people online shorthand that to "nazi" I won't lose any sleep over that. Carl on the other hand strikes me as a bit of a clown by comparison, though I haven't followed him as closely.

[...] claims that far-right groups in NZ are preparing terrorist attacks [...]

You may recall this actually did happen in New Zealand's very-recent history, and it is something kiwis are (rightly) alert to, and are (rightly) unwilling to let happen again.

Kyle Chapman was arrested for owning a gun, but he’s not even a part of any far-right group...

[...] claim that the Rob Gray Life Centre is a [right-wing] terrorist training hub.

Kyle has expressed some quite extreme beliefs on topics like race, culture, and has convictions for violence related to those views. Let's be 100% clear here, "far-right" and "terrorist" are labels that fit Kyle pretty well from his track-record, even if he has softened up a bit in the last few decades. He is absolutely not the kind of person who should be in possession of weapons, let alone firearms - I'm actually really curious to know what his justification for being in possession of them was. And he's running "survivalist" training courses at RGLC - Rangi is hyperbolic but he has a point.

To be fair I've never met you in person, or Kyle, or anyone else at RGLC - I can only go off the things I've seen you say online. In fact I agree with you on some issues - for example you personally are 100% correct to be angry about the state of housing and income inequality in this country - I'm angry about those same issues. However I don't think the solution to these problems involves racism, or homophobia, or hate in any form - it's just a pointless non-productive waste of your emotional energy.

If I've got the wrong end of the stick about you as an individual, by all means let me know. But I'm pretty comfortable to call the movement you're defending in this comment far-right and authoritarian.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think the protest movements fit on a political spectrum of any sort. They're just angry about things and much of it is justified, I think the government should listen to their views on vaccination. The only term that I identify with is pro-russian. The United States is basically a fascist country which hides behind a rainbow flag, but now I'm being as hyperbolic as Rangi HA-HA-HA. As far as I'm concerned, people like Valerie Morse are fascists and authoritarians. They stand with NATO and Ukraine and have no problem with missiles and artillery shells being sent to Ukraine, despite the same Peace Action group protesting against arms companies. I can't wait for the rules based order to fizzle into irrelevancy.

The word 'globalist' was popularised by Alex Jones maybe 12 or 15 years ago. I don't believe that all these middle age women at the protests are blaming Jews for the vaccine. If someone posted that suggestion on Counterspin Media, they'd probably be banned. When they say globalists, they really mean it.... Outsides influences corrupting our country such as the U.N. agendas to fight climate change at the expense of good jobs.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

There's a saying on the left that if you sit down at a table with a nazi, there are now two nazis at the table. I don't completely agree with that logic, but the far-right are a sizable influence in those protest groups. Sure you get the crunchy hippy vegan wellness-mummas who are only there because they're anti-vax or anti-fluoride or whatever, but they have seemed pretty alarmingly willing to jump on the anti-trans hate train recently. Anger at the system does seem to be the main uniting value, you're right, and personally I think that anger is something that needs to be healed through civil discourse and maybe politics. But that anger is currently being hijacked by the far-right to bolster their cause, and that worries me.

I don’t believe that all these middle age women at the protests are blaming Jews for the vaccine

I don't believe they are either, but I think some of the people supporting and pushing these movements absolutely are. For a movement that is hyper-aware of "agendas" and "narratives" the people in these protest movements seem pretty oblivious to the possibility their own movement is influenced in exactly that type of way.

The only term that I identify with is pro-russian.

Which is honestly unsurprising. Western intelligence groups have been sounding alarm bells about Russian attempts to interfere in the politics of western democracies for a decade or so now, as you likely know well. In my time on Telegram I've noticed a constant low-level hum of spam in major channels that has all the fingerprints of state-sponsored propaganda, likely out of Russia. Telegram itself has such intimate links to the Kremlin it may as well be a state asset at this point. Whatever your personal reasons for being pro-Russia, you have to recognise they have a clear interest in sowing disharmony in western nations, and they have the capability to do it. If I were in their shoes, these anti-government fringe movements would be the perfect tool for the job. Have you really not considered the possibility that you've bought into the propaganda platform of an increasingly hostile foreign government?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

The guy who made telegram is dodgy af. I have no idea what he's up to, but Russia's ministry of defence is on there, officially.

I love the russian propaganda, but I don't approve of boomers ranting about the whole trans-gender thing. It's too cringe for me, especially when we have problems like housing. I've definitely seen that hum of spam on certain issues. It's designed to appeal to boomers and fools. The anti-vaccine and anti-WEF is totally a state sponsored operation, it's about undermining trust in institutions on the long-term.

I'm against the NZ government and I'm against the so-called "intelligence community" too.