this post was submitted on 24 Jun 2023
31 points (100.0% liked)

No Stupid Questions

35731 readers
1008 users here now

No such thing. Ask away!

!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others' questions on various topics.

The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:

Rules (interactive)


Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.

All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.



Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.

Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.



Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.

Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.



Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.

That's it.



Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.

Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.



Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.

Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.

On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it's in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.

If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.



Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.

If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.

Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.



Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.



Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.

Let everyone have their own content.



Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.



Credits

Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!

The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

I understand that log2 is useful for informatics, e.g. to determine how many bits I need to represent a given number. I understand that log10 is useful to determine the order of magnitude of numbers.

However, I'm having trouble understanding what makes ln interesting. It seems like it's used a lot, but to me it just looks like a logarithm with a very weird base. What are the uses for this logarithm?

top 12 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] x7123m3_256 29 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not a weird base, it's really the most natural base to choose, which is why it's called the natural logarithm. It doesn't particularly matter what base you choose, because you can always convert from one base to another, but often the natural logarithm is simpler to work with. For example, the derivative of ln(x) is just 1/x. The derivative of log10(x) is 1/(x*ln(10)).

This is because ln(x) is the inverse of e^x, which has the unique property that it is its own derivative.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

The simple derivative really is nice, thanks for pointing this out!

[–] rbhfd 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The 'e' base is an interesting choice in calculus. For example, the derivative of ln(x) wrt x is 1/x. The derivative of log10(x) wrt x is 1/(ln(10)x). The natural logarithm automatically pops up!

[–] green_pyroxene 8 points 1 year ago

on top of that, 'e' is the only base b such that d/dx b^x = b^x. every other base induces some multiplicative factor in the derivative, hence why it's considered the 'natural' base for exponentials and logarithms.

[–] Awkward_Penguin 9 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I highly recommend checking out these articles from Better Explained. It's what made it finally click for me.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thanks. I have tried following the first article, but I didn't really get the point of the talk about "perfect compound growth". Maybe I'll try reading the article in smaller pieces over a view days, so that I can internalize each step of the explanation.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Didn't think I'd stay up late reading about math, but here we are.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

So to be honest, 90% of the time the base of the logarithm doesn't really matter as long as we are consistent. The main property we use logarithms for is that log_b(xy) = log_b(x) + log_b(y), and this holds for any base b. In fact, the change-of-base formula tells us that we can get from one base to another just by multiplying by a constant (log_a(x) = log_b(x) * 1/log_b(a)), and so there is a strong desire to pick one canonical "logarithm" function, and just take care of any base silliness by multiplying your final result by a scaling factor if needed.

Given that, the natural logarithm is quite "natural" because it is the inverse of the exponential function, exp(x) = e^x. The exponential function itself is quite natural as it is the unique function f such that f(0) = 1 and f'(x) = f(x). Really, I would argue that the function exp(x) is the fundamentally important mathematical object -- the natural logarithm is important because it is that function's inverse, and the number e just happens to be the value of exp(1).

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Your explanation makes a lot of sense to me! I didn't know that exp'(x) = exp(x), but can see how this could be an interesting property and in turn makes ln interesting.

You saying, that it often doesn't matter which logarithm is used, made me check and realize that log_a(x)/log_a(y) is the same as log_b(x)/log_b(y). Thus I understand that it really doesn't make a difference which logarithm is used when "comparing the magnitude" (not sure if this is the right term) of numbers.

I feel like I have a much better understanding of ln now. I'll assume that the base of an algorithm is often basically a random choice and base e is often used because of its "interesting trivia".

Thanks a lot!

[–] kiwifoxtrot 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

ln(x) and e^x are to simulate growth rates, which is why I assume it's called the natural log. A great example is to use a natural log to show the growth of bacteria as they divide into two to grow, 1 -> 2 -> 4 -> 8 -> 16 etc. ln(x) will give you the time it will take to grow your population to size x. e^x will give you the size of your population after x time.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's the inverse of the natural exponential function. So if you want to solve something like e^x=49 you can apply ln to both sides and get X=ln(49). e is a very natural constant for various reasons. For example suppose that something doubles each year, which you could express as something like y = x*2. Now suppose that you want do distribute that growth over multiple steps each year. So it would for example increase by 50% each half year. So for a year you'd get two steps: y= x*1.5*1.5 = x*2.25. Which is more because of compound interest.

If you increase these intermediate steps towards infinity, that factor becomes e.

[–] someacnt_ 1 points 1 year ago

One word: differentiation.

load more comments
view more: next ›