this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2023
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Potentially this means that Fedora and CentOS stream do not get timely updates implemented in RHEL.

Canonical must be throwing a party, and I bet SUSE is not hating it either

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[–] [email protected] 56 points 1 year ago (3 children)

A lot of people suggested moving away from rhel and rhel based... I did not listen and now...

[–] [email protected] 49 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Yeah, the writing was on the wall as soon as IBM acquired Red Hat. IBM is going to end up hollowing out Red Hat in their drive for more revenue. They started by destroying CentOS, which used to be a community-supported binary-compatible RHEL analog but is now effectively RHEL Beta and thus useless for enterprise work. Now they're closing the source so they can kill the other RHEL analogs, like Rocky Linux.

It's such a short-sighted move though, so many things got built on RHEL and compatible because those FOSS options existed. IBM seems to think that some significant percentage of those free installs can be converted to a paid install, and they might be right in the short term but I think the long-term impact is gonna be dire. Over time RHEL could became a closed-source ghetto in the FOSS world because fewer developers will be able to test their open source projects on RHEL without paying the IBM tax. Once RHEL starts to fall behind it could cause enough friction that enterprises will start looking to other distros, and then Red Hat's primary revenue stream starts to dry up.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

IBM apparently didn't learn their IBM-compatible lesson.

[–] woelkchen 6 points 1 year ago

They started by destroying CentOS, which used to be a community-supported binary-compatible RHEL analog

The problem from RH's POV was that the community actually didn't do anything. It was financed by RH just to help Oracle make their commercial RHEL competitor.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’ve been a happy fedora user for some time now. Maybe it’s time to start distrohopping again.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago

I think Fedora will continue to be fine for the foreseeable future as it's an upstream OS. It gets changes before they go into an RHEL release, which means a Fedora user is essentially beta-testing future RHEL changes. There's nothing inherently wrong with that and if you're happy on Fedora then you can stick with it and be confident it's going to continue to operate the way it does today (barring any future licensing changes from IBM that affect upstream distros).

This change will really affect the downstream distros like Rocky Linux and AlmaLinux. I think those distros have a valuable place in the FOSS ecosystem, as they allow FOSS contributors a low-friction way to test their code on an RHEL-compatible distro without having to agree to a Red Hat license. The fact they IBM / Red Hat is making this change must mean that they see some advantage in having absolute control of the licensing terms for downstream distros, and I have to imagine that their gain will be at least partly at the community's expense.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is this the beginning of yet another corporate enshitifcation? Or are we already further in the process? I haven't been paying that much attention to Red Hat.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Is this the beginning of yet another corporate enshitifcation?

I hadn't actually thought of this as enshitification, but upon reflection... yeah, it truly is! Red Hat allowed the existence of downstream distros, and even made one of their own in CentOS, because they understood how supporting FOSS dev/test on their enterprise product ultimately increased the overall value of that product to their paying customers. Now that IBM has bought Red Hat they don't care about any of that, they just want to squeeze as hard as possible to maximize the return on their investment. I'd say enshitification started in earnest when they killed CentOS six months ago, so the current announcement is the second phase of enshitification.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

That sucks. I didn't know they had already killed CentOS, but knowing IBM owns them makes this less of a surprise, last I checked, IBM has been struggling financially.

I wonder how this change will affect distros like Fedora.

[–] ulu_mulu 2 points 1 year ago

cause enough friction that enterprises will start looking to other distros

Highly unlikely IMO, unless someone else enters the market of commercial support.

I've been working for big enterprises for decades, not IT companies but big nonetheless.

The reason why Linux could "break the barrier" and enter the enterprise market (at least in EU) is that one day Red Hat became a company capable of guarantee support by means of support contracts.

Big enterprises don't care a product is the best in the world IF they cannot have a contract with some entity capable of commercially supporting it every time there's a problem.

I believe it's very stupid on IBM part to make this move, but as long as they maintain their contracts, big enterprises will stay on Red Hat, they won't care about what will happen to independent developers, they wouldn't be using their software anyway.

Very sad, but at enterprise level there are not many choices when it comes to opensource software.

[–] woelkchen 18 points 1 year ago

A lot of people suggested moving away from rhel and rhel based… I did not listen and now…

Alma and Rocky Linux both said it's not a change that will dramatically impact them. They'll have to adapt the existing workflows but they'll both continue.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

It's not closed source technically, but it is a little suspect at the very least. It's not violating GPL, but we should be striving for better than the bare minimum.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 1 year ago (22 children)
[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago

Debian has always had a primary focus on being open source and adhering to good open source principles. It's a rare trait in the modern Linux ecosystem sadly, with so many corporate distros just trying to make a buck. Arch seems pretty good about open principles as well. I'm always going to stick to community-powered distros over ones backed by corporations and I suggest everyone who cares about FOSS do the same.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Dammit I just got used to Fedora too. Guess I have to go pure Debian now

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Fedora is upstream from RHEL, it won't make the slightest bit of difference.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

That's good to know, thank you!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's not going to have a direct material effect, but it's going to affect perception. There are already people cautious about corporate influence on Linux, and a Linux distro getting closed like this is going to be seen negatively. While Fedora and RedHat are separate entities, they're close enough for one's perception to rub off on the other.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

But it's not "getting closed", that's a misleading headline that people have jumped on all of a sudden, there was no talk of this yesterday when the change was announced. This was the original wording. Nothing is going closed, the way it's published is changing - you might not like the change, but to call it closed source is just deceptive.

The worst case (most cynical interpretation of Red Hat's narrative) is that they're trying to make things difficult for Rocky and Alma (which doesn't make much sense to me from their point of view but it's what it looks like). The best case (most charitable interpretation) is that it's a simple rationalisation that could encourage better community integration.

Of course if people keep spreading false or sensationalist narrative that might harm their reputation anyway through misinformation (which is kind of what happened with CentOS Stream in my view).

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Right. I'm not seeing how this affects Fedora Linux.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

openSUSE Leap or Tumbleweed is an option if you wanna stick to RPM-based.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Yes, SUSE have always been great.

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[–] woelkchen 19 points 1 year ago

As I understand the situation Red Hat will just release the sources on centos.org. Much fuss about a domain change. They'll still comply with the GPL. Nothing is going closed source.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

This is especially painful since it means you can't easily use any RHEL downstream distros like Alma or Rocky for testing or build servers for RHEL anymore. I suspect this will lead to even worse third party software support to complement RHEL's tiny selection of available packages.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

TLDW?

What is gonna happen to Fedora?

What are they thinking?

[–] pahakala 3 points 1 year ago

fedora will be fine as it is the upstream provider of rpm build files

fedora -> centos stream -> RHEL

Rocky Linux and Oracle Linux that take the RHEL sources without contributing back are having their src rpm access cut.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (2 children)

We need to make "Arch Enterprise Linux".

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Seems like another good company is being sacrificed to corporate greed.

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

That's a sensationalist take on some day old news.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Has anyone got a source on this? The video doesn’t have any more info linked…

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Man I'm glad I never picked up Fedora. Rocky has already put out a statement that they should be fine at least.

https://forums.rockylinux.org/t/has-red-hat-just-killed-rocky-linux/10378/3

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What??? Is there an article rather than a video?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Am I missing something? Nothing there says anything about becoming closed source?

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Sensationalism at its finest.

However, the open-source developer GloriousEggroll mentions that the developer subscription to RHEL is free. So, access to RHEL source code is still possible but inconvenient?

Just want to to note here the Developer subscription is completely free and still allows access to RHEL and its source code if you want exact package sources. CentOS stream basically serves as a RHEL upstream so I understand this change. It may seem confusing for some people.

— GloriousEggroll @[email protected] (@GloriousEggroll) June 22, 2023

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