Beehaw just got rid of downvotes entirely. I'm mildly convinced that's the way to go, but I don't hold strong opinions about it.
this post was submitted on 21 Jun 2023
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I think getting rid of downvotes can also make social media more negative, since people feel the need to reply to things they don't like instead of down voting and moving on. Of course, I now can't find a source to back that claim, so take it with a grain of salt.
Source: personal experience. Usenet was a wretched hive of trolls and flame wars. I will gladly sacrifice a few unpopular takes if that's what it takes to do away with that nonsense. And I can tell you, from experience, works. For every unpopular take at a score of -2 or so, there are probably ten more at -9000 that we can totally do without.
Yes, it means that people expressing an unpopular opinion have to be very careful with tone and phrasing. But they ought to be doing that anyway. Nobody ought to think they can just waltz into a community, say something that completely contradicts their raison d'etre without any attempt at respectful framing, and expect to be welcomed with open arms.
What I dislike about this is that people who might have something interesting to say or discuss would be discouraged from posting altogether because of the effort involved in carefully crafting their "tone and phrasing" . Like we could still have a report function so a moderator can identify and take down obviously inflammatory -9000-type posts, right? I think people tend to back into their shells when they see their post (which could very possibly already be well thought-out) downvoted to shit for no other reason than the 'monkey-see monkey-do' downvote behavior. In the long run, it seems like it leads to stagnation. I've seen it happen on some of my favorite subreddits as they get more popular and sadly echo chambered. Just my opinion tho.
I feel like this could go either way, depending on moderation. A good response to something you don't like can make an interesting and nuanced convo for third parties to read. A bad one can just lead to arguments.
I think in a large anonymous place like reddit you end up with arguments because there's no built-in good will and not enough moderation. Lemmy communities might be able to mitigate some of that to encourage substantive disagreement.
I think right now that's easy, but when the servers get too big (as some of them already are), moderation becomes increasingly difficult. I'm not convinced the instanced strategy will solve that problem in the long run, but so far so good I guess.
I can already tell the difference from some instances on my feed from just my smaller local.
A comment is usually a lot more expressive than a downvote, adding valuable context to something other than just marking something as bad.
The reason reddit worked so well for so long was primarily due to downvoting. There's drawbacks and it could certainly be improvedb, ut having a system where those who contribute rise to the top, while those who don't get filtered out makes it worth it.
Did they get rid of them, or did they hide it from the UI? Bots are the ultimate threat here, and they won't use the UI.
Both. Downvotes aren't taken into account for all beehaw posts and comments. Even if someone downvotes a beehaw post from another instance, it just won't send.
Yeah, I was against it at first, because I don't like options being taken from me, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.
The whole idea is based on the false equivalency that upvotes and downvotes are equal, when in fact people feel negatives much more strongly, and they also tend to have an oversized impact, like mentioned by OP.
Beehaw really is creating a super safespace for the not-so-well adjusted.
That's the beauty of this kind of system though. beehaw can setup their server however they want, if you don't like how they have things set up don't use their local, you can either choose to interact with it through other federated instances or not.
People from instances where it‘s active or even kbin would still be able to downvote though, wouldn‘t they?
They can hit the button, but Beehaw won't register the downvote. In fact, as best I can tell it changes them into upvotes. I use Jeroba, so when I'm looking at Beehaw I still see the downvote button, but when I try to use it, I get error messages.
I think it’s important to remember not to downvote someone because they have a differing opinion on a subject. I reserve my downvotes for when I am pretty sure the commenter is purposely and consciously spreading misinformation, or is being otherwise hateful.
I'm pretty sure 99% of my downvotes have gone toward lemmygrad
Look. I've been part of subreddits that have bots that downvote EVERYTHING automatically.
There are malicious people everywhere. It's one thing to inform people about how the system works, but it's almost pointless when the system is designed in a way that is abusable.
These are things that Lemmy needs to change in order to evolve with the larger userbase.
I've been trying to upvote nearly everything to try and help with engagement. As others have mentioned, at this point I mainly downvote hateful content or misinformation.
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Edit : @[email protected] please consider changing this post's title
I think having both votes available and displayed are massively beneficial as a tool against echo chambers/dogma.
Fuck group think. It's an illusion.
I disagree. post karma only matters if you're limited to viewing in the feed only. if the community doesnt care about posts showing the the federated feed then post karma is a meaningless metric.
a worrisome issue is that brigading smaller communities effectively mutes them (from a federated standpoint)... however, there are innumerable ways to search for communities. you do have to take the initiative.
Could you possible expound on these innumerable ways? I am new to Lemmy, and have been trying to subscribe to some federated communities, but can't seem to find them without clicking on something that takes me away from my home server. I know we're federated with them, because I am subscribed to other groups on that same server. But the Search function doesn't seem to work at all, and entering the address manually (as best I understand it) returns a nonexistent group error.
Could you help me out?
sure!
https://sub.rehab/ <--- Communities list (lemmy versions of subreddits from reddit) - just keep scrolling down
https://browse.feddit.de/ <--- same sort of idea with a different kind of interface
https://lemmyverse.net/communities <--- again, but different interface
https://fedidb.org/software/Lemmy <--- a list of instances, what version of lemmy they're running, and links to those instances. visit each instance & look in the "Communities" tab to see what groups are hosted on that instance.
https://lemmy.fediverse.observer/map <--- same sort of idea except you can see where the instances (aka servers) are physically located
https://lemmymap.feddit.de/ <--- federation map - you can see which instance federates with what other instances (or has explicitly defederated/blocked them & which ones).
https://fba.ryona.agency/ <--- defederation log - see what instance has defederated and the rationale provided, with searchable terms
I'm sure there are other methods
now, when you find a community that you want to join (assuming it's federated with your home instance), on that page there should be a block of text saying something like "you're not logged in blah blah blah, our community is called [email protected]"
so then you copy the text "[email protected]" and go back to your home instance & search for that - it will return a link, click on that link, then click on the Subscribe button.
rinse & repeat as necessary
I didn't consider federation. I'm not sure what prevents me from creating an instance with three users that vote on other servers. I can't run this test tonight. Hopefully someone gave that some thought.
I wonder if long term it would be feasible to push more of the "algorithm" onto the client side where it could be tweaked by the user (or more likely, by extensions or built-in options).
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