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also, Trump might not have won according to computer security experts: they have court documented fact-based evidence that indicates the US presidential election was likely hacked via voting software.
The numbers Trump achieved are non-credible.
https://www.planetcritical.com/p/cyber-security-experts-warn-election-hacked
This sounds like misinformation to me.
Your link makes reference to two open letters to substantiate its claims:
The first doesn't allege any particular wrongdoing, in this election, but makes the very valid case that considering that election software was definitely compromised by the Republicans in 2022, we should out of an abundance of caution do some recounts. That makes perfect sense to me. Some amount of recounting and auditing are part of every election, but sure, doing more sounds like a really good idea.
I looked at the second already, which makes much stronger claims, and it looks like its numbers are completely wrong or made-up, and there are other reasons to think it's pure hogwash. I touched on it here: https://ponder.cat/comment/951779
The more substantial weight of expert consensus behind the first open letter does not apply to the second, and most of what's in your link seems to be drawing the conclusion of the second, saying that the election "was likely hacked" and constructing a pretty extensive theory for how based on, as far as I can tell, nothing that is true.
It feels to me like someone is trying to spread a particular narrative that this election was stolen by Trump, for reasons that aren't clear to me.
The reasons are so when trump does actually steal the election after 4 years of rat fucking our democracy from the inside, it will look like political gamesmanship from the democrats.
"completely wrong or made-up"
some numbers might be speculation is as far as anyone can take it, and they might not be.
" misinformation"
people keep using this word and "conspiracy" wrong.
I agree we should do a recount, specifically in the seven swing States.
I would stick to the first letter if I were you for now, which comes to the same conclusion as the second but without currently unprovable accusations.
“completely wrong or made-up”
some numbers might be speculation is as far as anyone can take it, and they might not be.
I'm not saying they were speculative. I'm saying I went to Arizona's elections web site, and the number of "bullet ballots" they say they found seems to be impossible based on what's up there, and furthermore that the number of ballots they say would have swung the election to Harris, wouldn't have swung the election to Harris. I think they're just making up numbers, in addition to some other issues.
Out of curiosity, did you read the comment I linked to? I thought about copy-pasting the whole thing, but I figured linking to it would be fine.
" misinformation"
people keep using this word and “conspiracy” wrong.
I meant what I said. I'm saying that this thing, which takes data which as far as I can tell is clearly wrong, and spins a specific narrative about what "likely" happened, citing things which kind of look like reliable sources but aren't, trying to blur the lines between a reliable source making modest claims and a wildly unreliable source making much more aggressive claims, is misinformation.
If someone was just mistaken about the election, or asking questions because they were shocked because Trump won, something like that, that's not misinformation. You posting this factually-wrong thing, and then being totally uninterested in questions of factual accuracy about it but just kind of dissembling into "some numbers might be speculation" as if it doesn't matter whether the "bullet ballots" thing which is the crux of their whole argument, is true or not, is misinformation.
like I said, you're using those words incorrectly.
you're using your own critique of some of the numbers from an individual scientist that are not the "crux of the argument" to dismiss the concrete facts put forth by the other eight computer scientists who very factually are saying that since we know they tried to steal the election 4 years ago and we know they have had access to the voting software used in this election, manual recounts are recommended.
now if you don't agree with that or you don't like the numbers a 9th computer scientist used, that's fine.
but it doesn't change the facts.
a conspiracy to overthrow the rightfully elected candidate occurred four years ago.
there is enough evidence to look into whether vote manipulation is occurring again in a different form this year.
try to separate your personal feelings from the facts.
you may be tired and defeatist, but how you're feeling isn't important to the actual "crux of the matter", which is that 4 years ago, when the fake electors scheme happened, the Republicans tried to take over the White House through vote manipulation.
a literal conspiracy.
this year, they have had access to the voting software that about 90% of Americans used in the swing States that determined this election.
let's do a manual recount of those States.
however much you just want to give up and let this be over, let's manually count the votes and make sure that Trump didn't try and succeed in manipulating votes where he is documented multiple times to have tried and failed 4 years ago.
these are not outlandish claims, they are concerted vote manipulations that already happened and it looks like they happened again on a wider scale.
let's make sure.
So misinformation is different from disinformation.
One of the hallmarks of disinformation is that someone knows they're being dishonest, and trying to engineer a particular result.
One example is just being totally uninterested in someone who points out that one of your sources is literally making up numbers, and instead going HAM on the original narrative. Throw in some random ad hominem "you may be tired and defeatist" "you just want to give up and let this be over," and continue the conversation indefinitely just repeating the original narrative any number of times to put it out there as legit point of view, and you've got yourself a recipe for adding a new narrative artificially into everyone's social media.
I have no idea if you're doing that, or if it's just a happy accident that you're doing what that would look like. As I said, recounts sound great. As I said, which you seem to be now acknowledging, there's no real indication of fraud in 2024, just the fact that out of an abundance of caution, auditing the election carefully would be a great idea.
I don't have much to disagree with out of your most recent message, and it doesn't seem you're interested in doing much more than repeating your narrative and sprinkling in some emotionally laden ad hominem, so I think I'll discontinue now.
"So misinformation is different from disinformation."
that's correct.
"I have no idea if you're doing that"
I'm not, I'm just working through all the baseless deniers pretty quickly here, so I'm not giving you the attention maybe you think you deserve?
"you seem to be now acknowledging, there's no real indication of fraud in 2024,"
nope, you got this incorrect also.
because we know the fake electro scheme occurred and Trump tried to fabricate votes in Georgia for years ago (these are two separate incidents of electoral fraud that indisputably occurred), then 2 years later we know because they admitted it, that Trump's lawyers hired people to steal voting software that was used by 90% of voters in swing States in this election, those multiple instances of specifically criminal vote manipulation is at least circumstantial evidence for vote manipulation occurring this year as well.
you have a problem with this one other scientist, so again try to stick to the facts.
or write that once I had testimony and letter, but then listen to all the other computer. scientists who are telling you that the voting machines Trump's team has had access to for 3 years could easily have been manipulated and they literally tried to steal the election 4 years ago and Trump literally tried to fabricate votes four years ago.
4 years ago was the last presidential election in case you're not following.
so if they already did it, and they failed, and then they said they were going to try again, maybe they succeeded this time.
We should probably check, huh?
"your narrative"
you're one of those " facts are opinions" people?
"so I think I'll discontinue now."
took you a real long message to tell me you're going to stop talking.
I see very little to disagree with, factually, in this message.
You sound like because I took issue with the "bullet ballots" thing, you're trying to engineer some disagreement with me, backing the goalposts up and then pretending I guess that I would disagree with this new stance. But yes, this mostly makes sense.
"you're trying to engineer some disagreement with me"
nope.
I disagree with your inaccuracy and tangential rabbit hole diving.
you're criticizing one instance of limited speculation with your own limited speculation, and ignoring the majority of other scientists who are only using unassailable facts, that is "the crux of the matter".
you're sticking with this one detail of this one guy so that you don't have to come to terms with the facts.
I'm not engineering anything, you're upset that I'm not allowing you to fabricate an inaccurate narrative.
don't pretend you're not the one holding those goalposts.
Unless you actually believe that you're not...in which case, take a deep breath, read your comments through again, and try to pare down what you're saying to the things that actually make a difference instead of just argumentative quibbling.
you agree with everything I'm saying, you don't like how I'm saying it because I'm not being polite to your less consequential narratives.
well, I'm not going to be polite because you started making things up or changing the topic either so, don't go that route.
I really just don't want to sit and argue with you.
To clarify, I strongly disagree with your linked source, and your initial message where you said the election "was likely hacked." I looked at the data which your own source led off with, and built its whole argument off. "The key data raising concerns that a hack may have been deployed is the number of bullet ballots which exist for Trump in swing states," they said. So I looked into those bullet ballot claims, and found that they're contradicted by publicly available information.
You can call that rabbit-hole diving or tangential if you want. I call it critical thinking.
I mostly agree with your more recent messages, where all you are saying is that the Republicans are dishonest enough that we should be doing recounts and making sure that nothing happened. That part makes perfect sense to me. I have no disagreement with any of the computer scientists who signed the "free speech for the people" letter.
I've clarified what I think, probably at too much length at this point. I'm not interested in an extended argument about it or in responding to personal attacks. Have a good day.
"I really just don't want to sit and argue with you."
... so you proceed to write a treatise?
"You can call that rabbit-hole diving or tangential if you want. I call it critical thinking."
that should make you feel better, and accurate though and maybe.
We have nine computer scientists talking about facts.
One of which goes one step further.
you think that maybe he is wrong.
based on you thinking that maybe he is wrong.
fine. maybe he is.
doesn't change anything about the other eight scientists linked or any of the relevant facts.
"probably at too much length at this point."
definitely, with some unnecessary redundancy.
"I'm not interested in an extended argument "
yeah, I can tell by all your rehashed arguments that you're not interested in arguing.
thanks for those.
https://lemmy.world/post/22317681
This is exactly what I said. The claimed evidence doesn't match the publicly available figures, and the rest is wild speculation with no particular backing. Almost as if "using your own critique" and testing extraordinary claims against known facts before absorbing them, is a good thing to do.
I'm going to return to not arguing with you, after this, but I just wanted to share that a trusted authority agrees with me exactly about how to treat the claims made your first couple of messages.
dude, you're not arguing with me, you're agreeing with me.
but I'm glad for it.