this post was submitted on 18 Sep 2024
105 points (84.8% liked)

Health - Resources and discussion for everything health-related

2388 readers
154 users here now

Health: physical and mental, individual and public.

Discussions, issues, resources, news, everything.

See the pinned post for a long list of other communities dedicated to health or specific diagnoses. The list is continuously updated.

Nothing here shall be taken as medical or any other kind of professional advice.

Commercial advertising is considered spam and not allowed. If you're not sure, contact mods to ask beforehand.

Linked videos without original description context by OP to initiate healthy, constructive discussions will be removed.

Regular rules of lemmy.world apply. Be civil.

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Awa
WhoRoger
RoyalEngineering
105
Healthcare: How Long Do Patients Have To Wait? (cdn.statcdn.com)
submitted 3 months ago by [email protected] to c/health
38 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

Source.

top 38 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 44 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (3 children)

I'm really disappointed in statista for publishing this. I've always considered them a solid source of data but this is flat out misinformation. It's based on study done by a biased source using questionable methodology using data from literature review that stretches at least as far back as the year 2000!

The study was done by the Consumer Choice Center, a right biased organization seeking to deregulate the Medical Industry.

The study is called "Healthcare Time Saved Index" and you can access it on their website.. You can read the full study (PDF) by clicking the link on that site and you can access their data / sourcing (Google Docs) at the link they posted.

If you want to hop right to the data / sourcing you can use this link.

First off despite what the infographic says this is absolutely 100% NOT 2023 data! If you look at column I (Average wait times for a primary physician appointment (days)) and check the sourcing this is what you will find:

America - Sources give data from 2021 and 2022.

Australia - Source is using data from 2000 - 2019 with the GP Data specifically ending in 2014.

United Kingdom - Source is using poll data from April of 2022.

Sweden - Source is using data from 2020.

For GP visits every one of their sources is using data from the pandemic, none of them are using data from 2023 as claimed by the graphic.

It doesn't get any better for "Non Emergency Surgery".

First off the CRC Study doesn't say "Non Emergency Surgery", it says "Elective Surgery" and as Johns Hopkins explains they are not the same.

Jumping back to the data it somehow gets worse.

America - Their source (Fee) relies on another source (Frasier) who is using data from 2016! The Fee.org article is also bashing Canada's healthcare system. (bias)

Australia - Data from 2022.

United Kingdom - Data from 2018.

Sweden - Data from 2018. (Same source as the UK)

So for ~~Non Emergency Surgery~~ Elective Surgery visits the data is once again NOT from 2023, instead it's a mix of significantly older and pandemic era data that at least in one case relies on a biased source.

So as I said in another comment "The study is fucking trash and someone took that trash, piled it into a dumpster, and then set it on fire in order to produce the infographic."

The post should be taken down by the mods as misinformation and statista should delete the infographic with embarrassment.

[–] jeffw 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I've actually done analyses with OECD data. It's terrible. This is about as good as it gets. Countries don't report these data points very reliably. You get some that are a decade old, some that are much newer.

The real bias is in the use of "non-emergency surgery" as a data point. Look at time to see a specialist and you'll get a much different picture. (edit: spoiler alert, the US sucks. ask me about healthcare scheduling if you want me to nerd out for a bit)

[–] Badeendje 4 points 3 months ago

Hilarious if the data is true though, cause everywhere it's more regulated and everywhere it's better. So if anything the results show that the US has moved in the wrong direction. But then.. this is probably coming frkm the "more guns prevent gun violence" and "misinformation is countered with more speech" people.. so yeah.

Anyway.. thanks for pointing out the uselessness of this graph.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Thats actually wild, I figured the data was fucky but damn

[–] [email protected] 35 points 3 months ago (1 children)

https://tobaccotactics.org/article/consumer-choice-center/

Looks like Consumer Choice Centre is a right wing anti regulation lobby group. Surprising that they would make an infographic that makes the US healthcare system look so terrible if their goal was to advocate for deregulation.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 months ago

The point of the "Study" they did was about efficiency and time, specifically how increased use of TeleMed, Blister Packs, and generally available contraceptives would save Patients time and Providers money. Does that make more sense?

This "study" is low quality work, barely above junk status. It uses old and weird sources and very questionable methodology. It's possible they came to the right conclusion (which wasn't US bashing btw) but if they did its only because the target was so wide that they could hardly fail to miss.

https://consumerchoicecenter.org/healthcare-time-saved-index/

[–] [email protected] 15 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I imagine the US times are exclusive of the "maybe it will heal on its own and I won't need to bankrupt myself" pre-doctor waiting period. I know I needed ankle surgery for several years before I gave up and went to the surgeon. I work with a guy who has needed knee replacement for as long as I have known him (and the injuries were not fresh when I met him).

The above waiting periods are not exclusive to non-emergency situations either. I know someone who almost died trying to tough out appendicitis (the appendectomy was more expensive and complicated than it would have been if he had gone immediately as a result).

I really don't think the above anecdotal evidence are particularly rare or unique either.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

According to the data source the US wait time is a Nationwide average...from 2022.

Gee, I can't imagine why getting a GP appointment would have been hard in 2022. It's not like there was anything going on.

Seriously, the study that this infographic is based on is pretty much junk no matter what country you live in.

[–] RaoulDook 3 points 3 months ago (3 children)

IDK what the wait time is about on the green bar. I typically have no trouble getting a same-day general practice doctor appointment with a phone call in the morning, in the USA. Has been this way for all my life and I was born last century.

Specialist appointments are where I have encountered delays of weeks.

[–] The_v 5 points 3 months ago

A regular Dr. appointments in my area are out 2 months.

Specialist are at 6 months. Some of them are out as long as 18 months .

My wife is going in for non-emergency surgery today, it's taken 6 months.

It's gotten bad enough that you have to go the ER or Urgent care for stuff a GP traditionally to handles.

Look up Providence Group, they purchase the local hospital system and have since fucked it up. Providers are leaving in droves because of their naked corruption.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/providence-to-pay-200m-for-illegal-timekeeping-and-break-practices/

https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/providers/providence-agrees-158m-refunds-debt-erasure-settle-charity-care-billing-investigation

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

IDK what the wait time is about on the green bar.

I do. That average wait time is from 2022 (pandemic anyone?). It also varied drastically depending on your exact location.

The "Study" can be found here - https://consumerchoicecenter.org/healthcare-time-saved-index/

If you click the link to the Access the Database you'll be taken to a Google Doc with sources. The first one up is the United States and if you go the "Average Wait Times" tab you can see that their source for the US was this article: https://www.forrester.com/blogs/hurry-up-and-wait-long-wait-times-cripple-access-to-care-health-outcomes-and-patient-experience/

It gets even worse when you check the next tab over regardarding Wait Times for Elective Surgery, there you find the data is from 2016! https://fee.org/articles/america-outperforms-canada-in-surgery-wait-times-and-its-not-even-close/

Oh, and "Non-Emergency" and "Elective" are NOT the same thing.

[–] Bassman1805 1 points 3 months ago

You're the outlier of outliers, then. General practice is booked weeks to months in advance for me.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

and its not like you just go to non emergency surgery. there is a generally a process of identifying the need with the primary care that requires multiple visits so if the primary care takes a long time it effectively makes the non emergency surgery take longer to actually get done. This is even the case in emergency cases where it takes the primary to identify you have something very very wrong with you.

[–] Droggelbecher 13 points 3 months ago (3 children)

Wait is it normal to need an appointment for a GP visit?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I mean, in Australia it is, although you can usually get one the same day/next day. Not sure where the 4 days comes from. The 21 days from the US is just madness tho, if accurate. By the time you see the doctor whatever you had had either passed or has killed you.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I didn't think these are "sick visits". I'm in the US and can see my GP within a day if I'm sick, but scheduling a physical will be much further out.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

What would you consider to be a "physical"?

The comparison about countries is hard to understand because I'm not sure of what constitutes as one or another.

Where I live I can walk in on a public hospital and see a doctor within two hours if I don't have any risk that would give me priority. Then if the doctor asks for an exam or x-ray or something, it might be done shortly after on the same hospital if there's some time concern, or they may just request you to do the exam and then you can go after it yourself. In this case getting it for free can take quite some time, so there's several private clinics that people go to only for exams - they can sometimes do it within one or two days, other times it takes longer.

However if you need surgery or something more advanced, you may end up dying on a waiting list if the doctors don't properly detect how much of a risk you're at. I don't have any personal experience with this part of the Healthcare system though so I'm only saying this based on stories I've heard and from some news coverage I've seen in the past.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Meaning non-threatening regular check-ups. Check blood pressure, sugar levels, etc. If I call up saying I have a fever they would typically schedule something that afternoon (if it's morning) or the next day or two depending on severity - not make me wait 21 days.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

I'm in the US, and I can't. I fucked my shoulder (probably a labral tear; still waiting on the MRI results), and it was two weeks to get in to see someone. If I'm actively dying from something, I would need to go to an ER or an urgent care center of some kind.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I can't get a sick visit in a day. within a few days maybe. they tell me to go to urgent care if its that bad which is possible same day but not your primary care who knows you medical history.

[–] Droggelbecher 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Interesting, where are you? It's more or less the opposite here (Austria). Hospitals will let you wait for ages (like 2 hours, possibly even more if it's particularly busy) if you walk in with something that doesn't require immediate treatment and/or their more advanced machines, and they'll tell you you shouldn't waste emergency resources for that stuff. I'm talking about COVID or the flu or things like that as a healthy young adult. But GPs will always take walk-ins for immediate issues. Mine has a wait time of 10-30 mins for walk-ins.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

usa. You wait hours here even if it is pretty immediate. I have seen a guy bleeding through hand towels from chainsaw accidents waiting hours. What im talking about though is a legitimate emergency sends you (or in this case my wife) the the er. When you are stable enough to leave they direct you to follow up with your primary and that is where it still take a month to get that follow up. Even though you were in the ER and the ER does not really fix you up completely they just basically get to where your not in danger of dying in the near term.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

YMMV. Only speaking from my experience. Even a "few days" is better than the 21 shown in the graph.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

well and actually my wife has a lot of issues and so it is not a physical but is not a virus. long term things that have to be worked out and she is lucky to get those within a month. Actually even emergency room they say to follow up with primary care and that can be like a month. and it was the effing emergency room. oh and specialiasts are pants with any follow up here, especially with complications.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Not sure where the 4 days comes from.

It comes from here.

That's a solid / highly regarded source but the data they used stretches as far back as 2000. Four days to see a GP may have been accurate in 2014 but could easily be out of date now.

The 21 days from the US is just madness tho, if accurate.

That 21 days number was a nationwide average from during the pandemic. I tracked down their source and while the infographic says "2023" the study source says 2021-2022...right during the pandemic. So not only is the year wrong the infographic is mislabled / misleading.

The study is fucking trash and someone took that trash, piled it into a dumpster, and then set it on fire in order to produce the infographic.

[–] khannie 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

It's normal in Ireland. I can always get one same day or next day.

I feel like this infographic is full of shite on the GP part tbh.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

The "Study" that this infographic is based on is full of shit. The deeper I dig into the data the more disgusted I get with it. It uses old / weird sources for a number of countries (for instance that US wait time is from the pandemic), they change up terms (Non-Emergency and Elective are not the same thing) and a whole host of other problems.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Here in Scotland, yes. I usually opt for a phone appointment because I'm lazy. It's never urgent but I can still get one within a couple of days. And that's with the surgery having recently closed its list to new patients because of a population surge in the town (new housing).

[–] [email protected] 10 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I wonder what the numbers would look like if you put in "can't afford it" as 1 year.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago

If they included that sort of bias in the data, America would be number one.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

I wonder what it would look like if private health care were included for the all countries.

[–] Awa 4 points 2 months ago

This post contains misinformation, but I'm conflicted about removing it. Doing so would also eliminate the valuable conversation that follows. Keeping it up allows for critical discourse and sharing of more reputable sources on the subject. The community's commentary effectively highlights how the infographic greatly misrepresents global healthcare waits, and I fully support the community members' contributions to this discussion.

[–] njm1314 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

What fucking Wonder World are these times from? Are like rich people's home concierge services bringing the numbers down? I don't think I've seen a doctor in under an hour in like 10 years.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The numbers on the chart represent days.

[–] njm1314 2 points 2 months ago

Oh God that's even more wrong then. 6 months is a good time I find.

[–] bamfic 2 points 3 months ago

Liea. Nobody in the usa has a general practitioner anymore. You got urgent care or emergency room, pick one.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

*please arrive 15 minutes early

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 months ago

This is nonsense, you can get into an urgent care the same day pretty much anywhere for GP care.