this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2024

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The Secret Behind Germany’s Record Renewables Buildout | As most countries struggle to install clean energy fast enough, Germany tackled the industry’s toughest problem: slow permitting. (www.bloomberg.com)

submitted 2 months ago by [email protected] to c/world

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[–] [email protected] 45 points 2 months ago (3 children)

When I think of cutting red tape, no unnecessary bullshit bureaucracy and fast acting government, I don't usually think of Germany. What happened?

[–] [email protected] 63 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The greens got to design some legislation

[–] [email protected] 47 points 2 months ago

And the conservatives attack them on every front because of how much they stir up things - it's so sad how well that propaganda works...

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago

As a German: me neither.

[–] Eiri 3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

They got paranoid about nuclear and closed down all their nuclear plants. They intensified fossil fuel power production because they didn't have enough renewable power. Then prices went up due to the war end they had an oh shit moment.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

This says otherwise. While coal (hard coal+lignite) use had been slightly elevated in 2022, it is already below the level of 2019 now. Natural gas use is mostly for household heating, which is usually non-electric in older houses in Germany, so there is some weather related fluctuation there. There are some gas powered electricity plants for emergency use, but they are only fired if there is no other way.

[–] Eiri 1 points 2 months ago

Well that's what I get for not checking my info!

Thanks for the correction.

[–] FlyingSquid 33 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The slow permitting is often by design. The fossil fuel companies are in a lot of governments' pockets.

[–] Neon 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

that sounds very conspiratory. "they up there are out to get you" if you know what I mean
The other way around. A lot of governments in fossil fuel companies' pockets (https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/in-someones-pocket)

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 months ago

Some regulation changed, and that is great. It is now much easier than before to put a photo voltaic installation on your roof that has a peak energy production above 10 kWp. That used to be the magic barrier beyond which things would get drastically more complicated, beaurocracy wise. Tax hell, basically. So that is gone now, and my SO and me installed a 25 kWp installation on our roof because of it. But let me tell you: it took six month just to get it connected to the net. The local energy net provider did not manage to swap our meter for a two-way meter for six months. We were able to power our home with it, but we could not provide any power to the net. Just because that company was too stupid to click a button somewhere to send instructions to another company to swap that energy meter. That other company was here on an unrelated job a month after our PV installation was done, and I asked them about it. They told me they could theoretically do it right away, but they had no order to do it, so they couldn't.

On the other hand, very small installations ("balcony power stations") are popping up everywhere, the kind that are 600-800 Watts and plug right into your power outlet. In theory, when installing them, you should fill out a form to give your power provider the chance to swap your meter so it doesn't run backwards when you're not using all the power, but nobody I know ever does that. I am guessing that that also has quite a bit of effect on our power mix.

[+] [email protected] -20 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Doesn’t help that they decommissioned all their nuclear plants

[–] norimee 22 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It doesnt help the "Record Renewables Buildout"?
No, actually it helped a lot.

I can't believe that Germany is being attacked for creating more renewable, clean energy. I mean, go against those dirty coal mining that is still left, that would be fair.

But an outcry because of the expansion of renewable energies? This is just "Ahrrggg... Germany energy politics bad, BAMM BAMM BAMM."

Please find an actual issue to be angry and shouting about.

[+] doodledup -9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

The coal is still left why exactly? Besides, neuclear is perfecly climate neutral.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Storage is an unsolved problem in 2024. NIMBY and some old storage facilities are failing, a problem for our kids to solve and pay for. I'm a nuclear proponent or I used to be one, but this ship has sailed for good.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

In case anyone is wondering "where does that 'yellow barrel is radioactive waste' meme come from" it comes from Germany. Those barrels contain mid-level radioactive waste, were only designed to contain it until they arrive in the depository, which is an old salt mine, which is in the process of getting dissolved by water incursions. Storing stuff in there cost the industry about 900k Euro in fees, fixing everything up is projected to cost on the order of six billion tax payer Euros. That's a subsidy right there isn't it. And this shit is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg.

Long story short pretty much noone in Germany trusts the nuclear industry to install a washing machine, much less operate nuclear plants or storage facilities.

[+] [email protected] -37 points 2 months ago (3 children)

What "desperation because you dismantled all your other stable power sources before having an alternative because oh nooo nukular scary" does to a mf

[–] Diplomjodler3 33 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (3 children)

Always the same bullshit. No, Germany got out of nuclear because it's simply not economically viable. You can delude yourself all you want, that shit is not coming back.

[–] kireotick 8 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Not economically viable to build new, yes. But to run existing ones until they need major renovations?

Like they already built the damn things. It would be wasteful to just shut them down, especially if replaced with coal and gas.

Or could you provide me with some sources on why running existing nuclear plants is too expensive?

[–] Jesus_666 30 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Most of our plants were already fairly old and major overhauls would've been necessary.

In 2000 we had plans for a nuclear exit already, intending to phase them out until 2015. In 2010 the government decided to keep some running. IIRC they did that in part so they could shut down coal plants instead.

Then Fukushima happened and we went full panic mode, deciding to shut all of them down ASAP. Then the Ukraine war got reignited and the timeline got slightly stretched out a little again for practical reasons.

The last three reactors got shut down last April, about eight years later than the 2000 plan intended.

[–] kireotick 1 points 2 months ago

Then we agree, nice. I don't know the costs of those repairs so I'll take your word for it.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

Germany got out of nuclear because it’s simply not economically viable.

Factually incorrect. Germany began the process of shuttering all their nuclear plants as a knee-jerk response to the Fukushima disaster in 2011..

" The nuclear disaster in Fukushima on 11 March 2011 was the cause for the vote in the German Bundestag - and the subsequent decision to phase out nuclear power. "

They had no renewables replacement plan in place when they made this decision- they mostly just bought power from the euro grid as a stop gap (and france's nuclear reactors, lmfao) until they built their own gas plants.

They replaced it with natural gas fired combined cycle plants that - conveniently! - were fuelled with Russian gas. Gas that they were desperately dependent on, and gas that instantly disappeared when flows were cut off in 2022 due to Ukraine's invasion. Extremely short sighted decision at best, actively stupid and likely sponsored by Russia at worst.

I am glad they are building out renewable capacity, but it's only under duress and explicitly in reaction to a huge energy and economic crisis of their own making by being stupidly shortsighted.

[–] Jesus_666 24 points 2 months ago

It's a bit more complicated. We were already planning to get out of nuclear because our plants were aging and new ones weren't economical. Then the government decided to freeze those plans for the time being. (IIRC one reason was that they wanted to close some of our terrible coal power plants first.) Then Fukushima happened and the Greens got everyone to panic.

We could've gone with a measured response but a combination of the Greens believing that nuclear power is infinitely bad and plenty of old people still having vivid memories of fallout-related health warnings from Chernobyl was enough to drive most of the country into an antinuclear frenzy. It's almost a miracle they didn't force all of the plants to scram immediately.

[–] Diplomjodler3 10 points 2 months ago

Yeah, the conservatives really fucked that one up, like everything they touch. But that doesn't change the fact that it was the right decision. The end of nuclear had already been decided years before and then the CDU government went back on that. Then after Fukushima they reversed the reversal. And of course they had also slowed down the build-out of renewables before which landed us in the mess where fossil fuel usage went up. But that was just bad policy not an argument to keep the outdated and ever more creaky nuclear reactors running.

[–] Eheran -3 points 2 months ago (1 children)

So even if we assume it is not economically viable... I would rather not have another few billion tons of CO2 just to save some money.

[–] Diplomjodler3 15 points 2 months ago (1 children)

It's not economically viable because renewables are drastically cheaper and also far quicker to build out. So if you want to cut CO2, renewables are the way to go.

[–] Eheran -2 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Okay and did you add all the extra cost to make that work? Like when talking about nuclear we do not just look at the reactor itself. For example you need lots of storage and distribution to make renewables work.

[–] Diplomjodler3 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Then renewables are still a lot cheaper.

[–] Eheran -5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Ah, thanks for that detailed reply, let me try: Nuclear is still a lot cheaper.

[–] Diplomjodler3 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Here's a source. What's yours?

[–] Eheran 0 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

This is the report where you got that picture from. On page 44 are the assumptions for storage costs: 100 to 400 MWh of storage, assuming they are charged and discharged 315 times per year (so eg. 31'500 MWh storage output per year for 100 MWh capacity). Those do not need to be 100% cycles, but given that a year has hardly more days than 315 and some days even see no production, they need to be cycled pretty much every day the sun is shining. Anyway, what is my point? We need more than a few hours of storage to make it work. But the more storage you have, the less you actually use it, making it disproportionaly more expensive. Note what they say:

Lithium-ion batteries remain the most cost competitive short-term (i.e., 2 – 4-hour) storage technology

We need more than 2 or 4 hours. A single night is already far longer than that. The shorter the storage duration, the cheaper it is. Of course this skewes the numbers. It is like calculating the storage cost of nuclear waste for only 2 years. Of course it looks better.

[–] HairyHarry 21 points 2 months ago

But you know what? It's working for us mfs.

[–] FlyingSquid 10 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The biggest problem I see about nuclear apart from it being extremely slow to build even if permitting is not holding things up is that it's just relying on another non-renewable resource.