this post was submitted on 16 Jul 2024
-3 points (46.9% liked)

Canvas

2084 readers
1 users here now

Canvas — The Fediverse’s r/place

2024 Concluded!

Get a print!

Links

Timelapses

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
-3
In canvas 2025, what if we ganged up against the largest country flag, whichever it is? (mander.xyz)
submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) by [email protected] to c/[email protected]
60 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

[Idea] If you don't want to see huge flags taking space over actual drawings in the Canvas, pick the biggest flag that you can find to deface.

As long as a lot of people are doing that, the ones templating larger flags will be forced to reduce their layouts and give more room for actual drawings.

[Reasoning] When it comes to country flags, I think that the immense majority of the users can be split into four groups:

  1. The ones who don't want to see country flags at all.
  2. The ones who are OK with smaller flags, but don't want to see larger ones.
  3. The ones who want to see a specific large flag taking a huge chunk of space.
  4. The ones who want to see the whole canvas burning, like the void.

I'm myself firmly rooted into #1, but this idea is a compromise between #1, #2 and #4.

Typically #3 uses numbers (and/or bots) to seize a huge chunk of the canvas to their flags. Well, let's use numbers against it then. As long as #1, #2 and #4 are trying to wreck the same flag, we win.

[inb4]

But what about identity flags?

Not a problem. They're typically bands instead of thick squares, and people drawing them are fairly accommodating.

But what about [insert another thing]

Even if [thing] is a problem, it's probably minor in comparison with huge country flags.

What should be the template?

None. We don't need one, as long as everyone is working against the same large flag.

Just draw something of your choice over the flag, preferably over its iconic features.

But I'm not creative enough for that!

No matter how shitty your drawing is, it's probably still way more original than a country flag. So don't feel discouraged.

That said, you can always help someone else with their drawing. Or plop in some text. Or just void.

Why are you posting this now, you bloody Slowpoke?

I wish that I thought about this before Canvas 2024. But better later than never. (And better early by a year for Canvas 2025.)

EDIT: addressing on general grounds some whining from group #3 (the ones who want to see a specific large flag taking a huge chunk of the canvas space).

You do realise that this sort of "war against the largest flag" should benefit even you, as long as the biggest flag is not the one you're working with, right? Even for you, this makes the canvas a more even level field. Let us not forget that you love to cover other flags with your own.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] FireWire400 23 points 3 months ago (1 children)

If you don't want to see flags, don't participate. Canvas is about people working together to create something and in my opinion, country flags have their place on there just as much as the endless brand logos, ponies and amongus crewmates.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

If you don’t want to see flags, don’t participate.

Or alternatively we [people who don't want to see larger flags seizing the space that should be taken by more meaningful stuff] can gather support to fight back within the rules of the Canvas, even if you found such a polite way to rephrase "if you don't like what we do, fuck off and don't play".

And I'm not even saying here "don't post flags at all". I'm saying "cut the larger flags down to size".

country flags have their place on there just as much as the endless brand logos, ponies and amongus crewmates.

And if left alone, their "place" becomes the whole canvas. We all know how nationalists are like - give them a hand and they'll scream "THE WHOLE ARM IS MY REICH".

[–] FireWire400 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

I'm not even really disagreeing with you. To be honest, I'm quite sick of seeing large plain flags on the canvas, too. But I fail to see a point in being so angry about it to the point of wanting to "fight back" against the "nationalists".

At the end of the day, it's not that important. Just leave them and look for other spots to draw your stuff, maybe ask around in participating communities; they'll even help you if you ask nicely.

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago (1 children)

But I fail to see a point in being so angry about it to the point of wanting to “fight back” against the “nationalists”.

Don't assume emotions of people on the internet. My reply was snarky indeed, but I'm not actually angry.

At the end of the day, it’s not that important. Just leave them and look for other spots to draw your stuff, maybe ask around in participating communities; they’ll even help you if you ask nicely.

You're preaching to the choir - that is exactly what I did in Canvas 2024. And also the reason why I'm proposing this alliance for Canvas 2025.

Conflict, forming factions, co-operation, and even vandalism are part of the game. That is how large flags pop up, and that is why I'm not proposing "GRAAAANT! We need rules against flags!" or anything similar.

However it works both ways. And just like people posting flags can organise towards a goal, I'm proposing that people with another goal should organise themselves. Even if you don't like it because it goes directly against your goal.

[–] FireWire400 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Even if you don’t like it because it goes directly against your goal.

As I've said, I can understand your point and that's part of the reason I do not support the German community for example; they tend to have the most flags every year and don't really allow anything on them from what I can see.

I was more or less helping to maintain the Australian flag, as well as some of the drawings on it. Granted, I also helped to delete a few drawings off it and admittedly, I was just following along in those cases.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

As I’ve said, I can understand your point and that’s part of the reason I do not support the German community for example; they tend to have the most flags every year and don’t really allow anything on them from what I can see.

That fits what I've seen in r/place and Canvas '23, too. And this year, too - the huge ~~rat~~ ~~mouse~~ ~~gerbil~~ lemming was still technically a drawing, but only technically, effectively it was a huge BRD flag.

Frankly this year I was rather surprised that the issue was the Australian flag taking too much space.

[–] FireWire400 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Australian flag taking too much space

It was scheduled to be even bigger last year... my point is that there's basically two types of flag-making communities; those who really do just take up space that could be otherwise used by many for themselves and those who let others' drawings co-exist on their flags.

I think the latter isn't all that bad, as long as there are no weird rules in place of what can and cannot be drawn on the flag; although I don't know what rules the Aussies had for this, aside from keeping the integral parts of the flag mostly intact, as I wasn't involved in the planning process.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

The point of flag is, that they are (usually) easier coordinate, draw and restore.

I suppose they will alway start with the flag because it is our culture but also define a drawing zone.

I disagree with any form of vadalism, but you may invit them drawing their monument :)

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago (8 children)

Please don't. The Aussie flag will likely be the largest, and it will have art on it next year (not like this year where we accepted art, next year it will be on the template.) It also allowed art this year. There is no reason to be an asshole and ruin stuff for no good reason.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

Oh wow. I had to go back to check for the Australian flag. Took me a bit to notice the blue and the two stars around the British Flag.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 9 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

I think the templates should be limited in size perhaps - if you look at the intended template location post from the other day, yes the Australian flag is significantly larger than the other submissions. However on the final canvas, people have drawn within the blue space of the flag which is actually quite cute. I don't think 'defacing' is necessary, but rather a continuation of (at least what appears to me to be) a symbiosis where overlapping images work together.

So I guess I'd like to see drawing accepted on top of any large continuous blocks of colour.

P.s. I love what Canada did - the outline on top of the flag looks really cool!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago

Limiting the template regardless of what's being drawn is an idea worth discussing with the devs.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Will you organise a Matrix chat for this? I'd definitely be interested in joining

[–] [email protected] 4 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Will you organise a Matrix chat for this?

Now I will - that's a great idea.

I'm planning to do so when the next Canvas is announced, in 2025, as people will be a bit more pumped up to join than now. (For now I'm mostly gauging interest on the idea.)

When I do it, do you want me to ping you?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Feel free to ping me! o/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (2 children)

The flaw in the plan is that three or four large-flag cadres could conspire to support each other and overwhelm a protest.

Ultimately, flags are just symbols similar to any other logo. But I’d still prefer just to see them banned from Canvas rather see Canvas turn into an r/place arms race.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

That flaw is an issue, indeed. And it's worth thinking on ways to reduce it.

However, there are two things in our side:

  1. the proportion of people holding critic and informed views about flags on Canvas is likely way higher than in r/place.
  2. due to the nature of the symbol in question (country flags), herds of "large-flaggers" will likely have trouble coordinating with each other.

Ultimately, flags are just symbols similar to any other logo.

Emphasis mine. I get your reasoning here and I agree with it; it's just that those specific symbols are egregiously problematic in this sort of "collab+compete Paint simulator".

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago

Sorry for the double reply. Another thing that I realised in the meantime is that people working on flags won't be willing to divert time too much time to undo defacement of another flag. So as long as we concentrate our efforts towards a single flag, the opposition of other flag-posters will be spotty at best.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

could we incorporate artwork over the flag like it happened with the Australian flag?

spoilerI really wish I'm not mistaking it for the New Zeland Flag

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago (1 children)

could we incorporate artwork over the flag like it happened with the Australian flag?

My main idea is to deface the flag, so I'd ask people to not integrate the artwork. But if you do integrate the artwork I'd ask people to leave it alone and focus on the flag itself, so it would be safe.

[–] FireWire400 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

So you want to protect artwork on a flag but not the flag itself? I guess my ultimate question is why do you care so much about defacing any (larger) flags on the canvas if they don't even take up that much space with just the flag parts alone.

Like, you want to respect people's drawings that they spend hours working on while defacing other people's drawings that they spend hours on just because you don't like the "country-based identity that benefits the government" these latter drawings supposedly represent.

I really don't mean to offend you, I just want to understand where you're coming from with this.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Not quite "to protect it"; more like "to ignore it". Even if the drawings are nationalistic in nature. For multiple reasons:

  1. Less targets = less effort.
  2. Easier to coordinate efforts towards something clear-cut (like "this is a flag"), than something that is often up to debate (like "this is a nationalistic symbol").
  3. Those drawings are typically more elaborated than "me maeks flag". As such, their artistic value is (for me) higher.
  4. The interpretation of a drawing as a nationalistic symbol depends heavily on the context, usually provided by the flag. (Think for example on a Taj Mahal on itself vs. a Taj Mahal mit an Indian flag. Or, dunno, a kiwi fruit with a NZer flag.)

But the main reason is that, while I personally despise nationalism and all that "muh country! lol lmao heil!" babble, the idea is to coordinate people based on the goal, not the reason behind chasing said goal. Some might share my worldviews of nationalistic symbols being bad, but most won't - some will be there just to see the canvas burn, some for the sake of carving room for another (and hopefully smaller) flag, etc.

Now, regarding the effort necessary to put something on the canvas, and the fact that we'll be reverting the result of the hours that they spent there: at the end of the day, the Canvas is solely a game. And even if they might dislike it, this sort of "you did it and I undid it" is part of the game.

I really don’t mean to offend you, I just want to understand where you’re coming from with this.

Don't worry about it; you aren't offending me.

I also apologise for the defensive tone that I took towards you at the start; I was expecting a lot of sealioning in this thread, from some flag posters, and it did happen, however you're clearly not sealioning, so you didn't deserve that tone.

[–] FireWire400 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Those drawings are typically more elaborated than “me maeks flag”. As such, their artistic value is (for me) higher.

That might be true, but depending on the flag I'd say that the whole act of adapting it into pixel art bears artistic value enough to say that the people responsible don't just blindly copy a template.

nationalistic symbol

I believe that most people (I even want to say almost everyone) drawing their country's flag on the canvas don't do it because they're a nationalists or they want to force the flag (as a representation of a country and all the connotations it may have) onto other people.

That goes back to the point I made earlier about the two types of communities; defending the "purity" of the flag and not allowing anyone to draw on it is more akin to forcing the flag onto people I think, while allowing people to more or less "deface" the flag with their own drawings (while still respecting other people's drawings i.e. the flag itself) is much more inviting and arguably in the spirit of the whole event.

this sort of “you did it and I undid it” is part of the game.

I guess I just want everyone to get along and work together, rather than against each other. Reddit's r/place was a battlefield where only the biggest communities even had a chance of maintaining their works; I just want Lemmy canvas to be a bit more relaxed, that's all.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I'll clip the quotes for succinctness.

That might be true, but depending on the flag [...] don’t just blindly copy a template.

I think that you're referring to the struggle of adapting an intricate pattern to a lower resolution, as the solutions for that struggle can be considered artistic. There are two catches however:

  1. This applies mostly to flags with emblems (as Mexico's) or text (as Saudi Arabia's). Those are typically not the concern in this sort of coop/compete online canvas.
  2. That artistic value is mostly relevant for smaller flags. And given that the proposal is to cut down larger flags into size, it'll actually increase their artistic value.

I believe that most people [...] don’t do it because they’re a nationalists or [...] onto other people.

Think a bit less on the people being nationalists and more on the discourse that those people are conveying being a nationalistic one.

That goes back to the point I made earlier about the two types of communities; [...] in the spirit of the whole event.

I don't think that those two types of user (ones willing vs. not willing to have drawings on a flag) map even remotely well to non-nationalists vs. nationalists. And, in any group posting any sort of country flag, you will have a mix of both types anyway, and it'll be impossible for anyone to enforce it one or another way.

Furthermore, when it comes to flag posters allegedly respecting the others' drawings, it goes often as I described in another comment; under a discourse that sounds a lot like “this is the land of Our Holy Symbol. However, since we’re magnanimous, we shall turn a blind eye to your doodle defacing it.”, while co-opting those the people drawing random stuff to defend the flag posters' flag, against other flags or actual drawings (as the people drawing random still likely care about the surroundings of their own drawing).

About the spirit of the event, see below.

I guess I just want everyone to get along and work together, rather than against each other. Reddit’s r/place was a battlefield where only the biggest communities even had a chance of maintaining their works; I just want Lemmy canvas to be a bit more relaxed, that’s all.

If the game was only about getting along and working together, it would be completely different. Factions like The Void would be banned on the spot, there would be a larger canvas to accommodate everyone, multi-accounting wouldn't be so discouraged, there would be measures discouraging people from undoing the others' drawings...

And yet none of those things happen. Because both cooperation and competition are part of the spirit of the game. In fact, I'd argue that they're sides of the same coin, with the actual spirit being to mirror human social interactions in something inconsequential. It's a bit like a political simulator, you know?

Even then I think that the Fediverse canvas will stay far more relaxed than the one in Reddit.

[–] FireWire400 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

Our Holy Symbol

Again, I think that you're focusing way too hard on there being some sort of deeper meaning to people drawing a country flag. Maybe you're right and those people are nationalists who try to propagate some idea that their country is somehow better than yours by drawing a bigger flag. Why do you care so much?

the actual spirit being to mirror human social interactions in something inconsequential

I guess you could say it like that, although I would disagree that there are no consequences, most people just choose to ignore them because they don't affect them personally in any way.

I don't think we'll find common ground here, but that's totally fine. It's been nice talking about it anyway; I just hope everything I said made sense^^

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago

Ah, the "our holy symbol" was copypasted from my earlier comment, so it doesn't address what you've already said in the meantime.

I also don't think that we'll find common ground. It's sounding more and more like different moral premises; and yes, what you said made sense (even if I disagree with it).

load more comments
view more: next ›