this post was submitted on 15 Jul 2024

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Sceptics say EVs will overwhelm the grid. In fact, they could be part of the solution (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 3 months ago by [email protected] to c/evs

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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/18002070

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[–] [email protected] 24 points 3 months ago (3 children)

I'm getting really tired of all the imaginary what-about-ism from ev-sceptics.

It's a total non-issue for most countries. The daily difference between peak hours and non-peak hours is much larger than what could even potentially be used for charging EVs.

The industrial electric consumption is much much larger than what is required for personal transportation.

Last year, in Denmark, a concrete factory switched from using one electric oven to using a more efficient electric oven. They obviously did this to save money and lowering their environmental impact, but.. this single switch in one single factory saved more electricity than is required to charge every single EV in the entire country.

Come on.. please, people, just have a look at the scale of things before starting another baseless fearmongering rant against having to eventually drive electric..

[–] [email protected] 12 points 3 months ago (2 children)

I as pro-EV as the best of them. A cradle to grave emissions drop of 40% is a great step forward on reducing transport emissions (public transport and active transportation are a whole other aspect of this we'll avoid here). However, characterizing the energy gap for EV charging as a non-issue is disingenuous.

You've correctly pointed out that peak hours are when the grid is most strained and vulnerable. Well, if most everyone who drives to work starts charging their EV when they get home from work, that is at the highest peak of the day: around 5-7pm. It's the addition to the peak curve that's the real concern. In most places, that means triggering on fossil fuel burning facilities to meet that peak demand. It also means increased peak loads on the transmission infrastructure that could overwhelm it.

That being said, there are some simple solutions: e.g. charge EVs on off-peak hours, smoothing out the demand on the grid. Where I live there is already an incentive to charge overnight in the form of ultra low overnight rates. I'm sure we'll find the solutions, but please don't pretend it's not a problem.

[–] AA5B 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

It’s not a critical problem. It won’t block anything. There are already possible solutions. As you said, utilities have been rolling out time of use metering for half a century, and already want it everywhere. My EV already has scheduling that can take advantage of that, and time of use metering would give me incentive to use that

It’s also not hard to imagine a service that could more intelligently coordinate the load for very low impact: I already have such a thing for my air conditioning

[–] [email protected] -1 points 3 months ago

I charge at home. The general setup is that to utilize the best pricing people switch to variable pricing when getting an EV, because it uses a lot of electricity and it's really easy to time the charging. The best prices are obviously always out of the peak hours.

Anyway, why are we asking millions of people to time their consumption, when it would be easier to ask a single factory or two to time their consumption to utilise the best pricing?

The article is from UK and I know their grid is in peak at teatime.. like, would it be to much to ask the factory to take a break while people have water to boil?

[+] [email protected] 5 points 3 months ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Are people really that dumb that they willingly pay peak pricing to charge their EV? Or are significant numbers of people in CA not on TOU rates? Everything I've seen suggest TOU rates are quite effective in getting users to shift certain loads (and EVs are easily shiftable).

[–] AA5B 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (1 children)

People don’t like TOU metering because they’re afraid of getting price gouged. I was too, who can trust a corporation not to take advantage? But now with an EV, I have an obvious use case where it would give me huge benefit. I’m ready to switch over

I’ll have to replace my hvac in the next couple years and am mostly annoyed at the lack of storage heating for heat pumps. My parents had that for electric heating and it worked great. Instead of a baseboard strip, every room had something about the size of a standard radiator - it absorbed heat overnight when rates were low and you just controlled a fan to adjust heat throughout the day. Where are those for heat pump head units?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

I wouldn't generalize that people "don't like TOU". People understand that energy costs more during peak periods and are generally receptive to these market forces. People are used to driving around to save $0.02/gallon on gas, they can run their dishwasher later in the evening and adjust their thermostat slightly to save money. Plus obviously off peak EV charging.

As to the heat pump situation, you're describing an air to water heat pump and a large buffer tank. You heat the tank off peak and it distributes the water throughout the day. You can then optimize to price, but the equation is complicated because the COP varies dramatically with outdoor temperature. These systems just aren't that common in the US though, where forced air or ductless heads are dominant, but people absolutely replace boilers with heat pump driven hot water systems. We should see more options (e.g. R290 monoblocs) in the US at some point, hopefully.

[–] AA5B 1 points 3 months ago

Found it, but not available where I am. Choices like these could really help

https://stash.energy/en/product/

[–] [email protected] 2 points 3 months ago (1 children)

Source?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Sorry can't find it again. It was in the news at the beginning of 2023 after the energy price "crisis" in 2022 following the Ukraine war.

What I can find now are articles and statements about their savings (in Danish). The switch of ovens actually happened in 2018 and they saved 13.6 gigawatts pro anno. That's a lot, but not enough to cover the EV charging. Then in 2023 they switched a fuel source that cut down a lot of CO2, and while that is not exactly an electricity saving, it is equal to the production of 300 gigawatts, which again entirely depends on how it is produced (and presented).

Anyway. Those figures are in the ballpark of what a newly erected wind turbine farm can provide, but it happened in a very short time and within less than 1 km radius on one single production facility: Aalborg Portland.

Mind, this is the largest energy consuming business in the country, but it still goes to show how much the industry can achieve with the right set of mind.

I used to work in the electricity sector and I can easily point at 4-5 other heavy consuming factories just in this area, who each consume more electricity than the entire residential market within the same area, car charging or not. It's as simple as sorting a list, but who's going to address it?

Also, I'd rather have that kind of production on electricity than other fuels, because at least our electricity is mainly renewable except for peak hours.

[–] elephantium 4 points 3 months ago (1 children)

This kind of thing always seems overblown to me. Can't electric companies, you know, upgrade their gear?

Sure, if you waved a magic wand and suddenly every ICE car was a plug-in EV, you'd have widespread blackouts.

There is no magic wand. People are adopting EVs gradually which means that power companies can stay ahead of the adoption rate and upgrade capacity as needed.

[–] AA5B 2 points 3 months ago

It’s a lot of poor assumptions. Yes the power grid can’t currently support the entire vehicle fleet being EV and charging at once. Duh.

However we’re assuming the grid will never change when in reality most of the changes are local and small, and made constantly as needed. It may be slower than ideal, but power companies are making these decisions every day. Does my home need upgraded service for electrification and home charging? Does my local transformer need to be upgraded now that my usage is higher? Does my neighborhood have enough juice to support multiple houses with higher usage? Multiply those everyday decisions by millions, but they happen all the time anyway

We’re assuming EVs will just happen, but the reality is even in optimistic scenarios the technology change will take a couple decades to scale out, especially in the US where it somehow became political. That’s a lot of time for power companies to get their shit together. It’s also lots of time for supply and demand to do their thing. Yes, they’re behind the curve and will continue to be so, but let’s not get overly dramatic about it.

Most importantly, not everyone charges at once, nor do they fully charge every time. For me personally, with work from home, I’ve been charging maybe 2hrs/wk. Do you really think all my neighbors are choosing the same 2 hours every week? I wish someone would figure out a smart solution to coordinate these for even lower impact, and I’m sure that will eventually come

[–] AA5B 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Let’s put this into perspective of a consumer. I installed Level 2 charger this year:

Most people don’t actually need Level 2: it’s a convenience.
I also spent less than $200 for adapters and cable to use pretty much any type of outlet I may found, and most or all would be sufficient
The new circuit is the same size as my stove circuit. This is not as huge or expansive as people imagine
Charging my EV use far less electricity than my air conditioner

[–] [email protected] 0 points 3 months ago

New Renaults look amazing. Then a year later they look like shit 😂