this post was submitted on 04 Jun 2023
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Lemmy

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Everything about Lemmy; bugs, gripes, praises, and advocacy.

For discussion about the lemmy.ml instance, go to [email protected].

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We all know about how Reddit closed-sourced back in 2017 and will be killing off third-party apps this July, what will Lemmy.ml do to avoid facing the same fate? Reddit started off like this (open, aiming for freedom) and it all went downhill from there.

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[–] [email protected] 31 points 1 year ago

As users, reject changes that would make Lemmy too centralized, or profit-driven or lose a sense of community.

As app developers make the code resistant to hostile takeover, prioritize transparency, interoperability, as the AGPL has already helped facilitate, and customizability, to allow servers to tailor a community experience.

As server owners/managers foster and promote healthy engagement and discourse within communities, without power tripping unnecessarily. By fragmenting across different servers people can more easily spin up and migrate to servers where they feel more at home and heard.

[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Email and websites are great federated success stories. Distributing the stakeholdership across companies in an interoperation keeps the peace, even in the face of crony capitalism. Just like each company has their own email server and website, they could and should operate their own federated instance of social media, be it Lemmy, or Mastodon, or Matrix... Or whatever becomes entrenched.

People forget that before SMTP email, there existed proprietary email! Yes, it's true. In fact it took more than 10 years for a federated email format to replace entrenched proprietary IBM and Xerox mail products.

In the end, even corporate clients prefer solutions they can have a controlling interest in, because they want some control of their kingdom, and they usually have the means to get it. You don't need extreme ancap or communistic views to get there, but you need a lot of patience. Decades of patience. It takes a long time for expensive lessons to settle in.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Except that the email game is now very centralized. Companies run their emails through MS or Google. Both of which have created barriers for independent email servers by marking them as spam more often than not. Email is NOT an example of a successful decentralized service.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

I am very aware of the kind of centralization you describe. It is inevitable. And will happen to Lemmy, and Mastodon, and Matrix if/when they become large enough. It'd go so far as to say we are already there with the World Wide Web. What you describe is simply the Pareto Principle in action and it's a law of natural order.

For me the measure of success of a decentralised service is a bit more modest: I need not that the market shares be evenly distributed among parties (that is a discussion of economics I frankly am not all that interested in debating).

But everything else still applies today: I can spin up a mail server today for pennies and start handing out my email to Average Joe, and (most of the time) they won't roll their eyes and say "uh how do I use this?". This is the ultimate, practical test of success of a decentralised communication service. For me it need not be fancy, it need simply to be used.

I am aware that in some developing countries this is not entirely true. I also think that these communities haven't had the time it takes to learn the very expensive lessons of centralization, as I made in my original point.

I also think some backsliding is possible, and probably happening with the marketshare of email providers today. Then there will be come some outtage, companies will lose profits and we'll all collectively relearn that maybe putting all our eggs in one basket isn't such a great thing.

If there is two things you can count on in people, it's greed and forgetting history.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Right, I am specifically saying that you cannot "spin up a mail server today for pennies and start handing out my email to Average Joe". It will fall in their spam folder and you will have to jump through many hoops to make sure that it actually gets delivered as expected.

The Pareto distribution of users across servers is a different thing than the big players creating ways to ensure that the small players aren't playing on equal terms. The former will happen for sure, the latter can hopefully be prevented in the Fediverse.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Right, I am specifically saying that you cannot "spin up a mail server today for pennies and start handing out my email to Average Joe". It will fall in their spam folder and you will have to jump through many hoops to make sure that it actually gets delivered as expected.

I experienced this specific issue you desribe myself. Turns out my server configuration was out of date and not following best security practices.

the big players creating ways to ensure that the small players aren't playing on equal terms

This has really not been my experience. Again, in my experience the only "barriers" I have encountered relate to de facto upgraded security protocols. Which is totally reasonable and within reach of any competent server admin (hey, if I could figure it out, anyone with a bit of knowledge can).

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

uucp existed before SMTP and is still working for email...

[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago (1 children)
  1. dont try to be a "outrage" generation machine
  2. dont try to capitalize $$$$
  3. open discussion != arguing
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (2 children)

God, your third part is so true. The amount of times I've seen threads locked or comments removed because "you're not playing nice."

Like come on. Most of the time it's someone having a debate.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago

After a while though it devolves into drivel. Folks "debating" just becomes a volley of insults. Mods probably have notifications enabled on threads, so if I thread blows up....well you can see my point.

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

The replies already here have touched on the most important factors and why they matter (it's open source under AGPL and it's decentralised, the core devs are ideologically anti-capitalist so they won't go public or sell out to advertisers, the users are the primary stakeholders)

But they haven't mentioned an issue with this question: we are a community. What could WE do to about becoming the next Reddit after a decade?

Most important? Get involved. Acknowledge that volunteering and donations are powerful! The best thing you can do is to help the devs, whether it be coding, translation, documentation, web design, or the many other things that help this place thrive. I see all these posts saying "Lemmy should make onboarding easier!" as if approximately two people are there to do all the work.

I'd say it's a mindset of coming from sites where you don't have the power and the only path for things to happen is complaining to the higher-ups. Being open source and community-driven are things new users need to understand. We may well be their first experience on a non-for-profit social media platform, where we don't have a designated full-time tech-support team, or a professional dev team of dozens.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thank you, very well said. For me, although I am a programmer, I'm not sure how much I can contribute (I'm just learning Rust now), but I joined the Patreon supporters. I think this is something everyone can consider who'd like to contribute to Lemmy in a meaningful way.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I haven't checked Lemmy, but I've heard some projects intentionally tag a few easy low-priority features that are recommended for beginners to try and tackle. I've made some really minor CSS theming changes and basic frontend layout edits, the kind of thing which is pretty safe and doesn't require expertise. Small things, but with a noticeable effect (especially when we had most of the Lemmy sites all using the same theme, so making slightly custom themes went a long way towards making it clear they are related but distinct)

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I checked, and yes - there are issues helpfully tagged as "good first issue" in the Lemmy Github repo. So if anybody reading this, that could be a good start.

As nutomic, a maintainer of Lemmy explained in this post, currently the most pressing issue is slow SQL queries which is a performance bottleneck. This might contribute heavily of the overloaded servers, so the project in need of some SQL experts to take a look at optimizing these queries! Link to Github issue

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Thank you so much for writing this. Its been a really hectic week for @[email protected] and I... hundreds of notifications, private messages, people asking us for tech support, as well as tons of requests for fixes and changes.

We can't and shouldn't be doing this alone, we need all the support we can get, and people's patience. I'm super thankful to all the people that have helped others in setting up instances.

I'm also confident that we will get over the hurdles, and become a threat to the US surveillance machine. The years of work many people have put in making this software will come to fruition, and they won't be able to ignore us.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

You're completely right. Community involvement works wonders.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't think it's possible due to it being decentralized. If anything goes wrong start your own instance. That's what I think a lot of the new users don't realize. This isn't a reddit clone, it's something with much greater potential

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I think one of the big hurdles is the user accounts. If the instance hosting my user account goes down I'll need to make a new one. That's fine once or twice but we should watch out that this does not become a frequent occurence. Otherwise people might get dissilusioned - Nobody wants to create a new account every few months. And some people get quite connected to their accounts, too.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Mastodon avoids this issue by allowing migration of user accounts from instance to instance, is this / can this be implemented into Lemmy?

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (8 children)

We, the users should make sure to stay on lemmy servers that use the open-source lemmy code. If other servers open up, who have closed source code, we should consider blocking them, at a minimum not support them by using their communities.

That will make sure that lemmy servers will keep using the open source code and thus will allow other people to spin up new servers.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm no expert, but my understanding of the AGPL license of Lemmy code is that any modification is legally required to display the modification's source code prominently online. So if I'm not mistaken then they can't close source the code, so long as the devs are willing to threaten legal action (like Mastodon vs. Truth Social)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Okay so they would have to write their own website that supports ActivityPub and is compatible to lemmy :)

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

And unfortunately, those companies have a huge leg up. They'll generally be the ones to write ads and tracking into the server. They'll get the investors money. They'll make the flashy ads they play on Facebook and TikTok.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Lemmy uses a open source license called the AGPL, which is a type of reciprocal license (called copyleft), which basically means you can't close the source without everyone who contribute agreeing to do it or rewriting their contribution (and i don't think it ever happened, i think it can be extremely difficult ).

setting up a non profit that that has a decentralized power structure and is legally obligated to do public good might also provide another protection (but a copyleft license is probably enough).

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It seems like the main driving factor in Reddit’s downfall is simple: money. They are making decisions that we the users hate because they think it’ll make them look more attractive to investors when they go public later this year.

Personally, I think Lemmy just has to avoid corporate greed, bending the knee to advertisers, and not allowing extremists on its platform (or at least forcing them to their own instance that can be de-federated). The first two shouldn’t be an issue for Lemmy as long as it is able to stay funded by users. The third seems like a constant struggle for every platform nowadays.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is how it always goes. Hate saying always, but I can't think of one instance where a public company made a move to improve something for their customers out of the goodness of their heart. It's always about the money.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The whole situation doesn’t really make sense to me anyways. It’s not like Reddit isn’t currently pulling in a bunch of revenue. They also have been a private company since what, 2005? I know the answer for going public is “more money” but I’m like you I can’t think of an instance where a public company has done something for the good of its users.

It really does seem like open source user owned systems are the way of the future. We’ve been burned too many times by corporations at this point. Here’s hoping we don’t have to rely on ads and sponsors to keep the fediverse running.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

@Lohrun @Billy_Gnosis Open source will win. Greed inevitably ruins good software products.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

The thing is, who a company's "users" or customers are and what their product is fundamentally changes when they go public.

For Reddit, their customers have been advertisers, and their community members have been their users. Their product has been user eyeballs they can sell to advertisers. And prior to adopting ads, their product was an open community forum and content aggregator, and their customers and users were the community members.

After going public, however, their customers will be shareholders, and their product will be share value. This fundamentally changes how a business operates, and what it sees its purpose as.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

@IverCoder I think Lemmy is different because what could you use the Reddit source code for? There wasn't any federation so it makes perfectly sense that a website which only runs at one company will close source their code to avoid competition. With federation it's different because the instances talk together so there is a difference between the protocol and the large instance. It's like making email closed source. Doesn't really make sense for such a protocol.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

All you have to do is retain ownership and never do an IPO.

Having shareholders in a public market makes a company go evil.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The Lemmy Devs are kind of hardcore MLs, AFAIK so I doubt they will ever have an IPO, lol.

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