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Anti-Israel agitators continue disruptions with escalations at USC, Harvard and Columbia
(www.foxnews.com)
this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2024
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Yes. The fire bombings on world war II were absolutely collective punishment.
From the wiki you just linked. Can we agree that there are people who live in Gaza, who do not support Hamas, and who are not actively involved in the fighting? You've just said they have to convince Hamas to stop fighting before things can be " over "?
You're making uninvolved people, responsible for the actions of others. That fits the definition from Wikipedia that you just link to.
No, they were attacking military tagets. They are not collective punishment.
They are not uninvolved. That is their government that started the fight.
I have very little empathy for the Palestinians. When they brought the hostages back, nobody stood up for them. Nobody tried to save any of them.
All right let's go through a thought experiment: You're a 16-year-old girl, you just had a baby. The father is dead. You want to leave the fighting zone. You're not allowed to leave. How do you affect collective action, and change the government? The government which last had an election before you were born
The fact that you and your baby cannot overthrow Hamas, is that enough reason for you to die?
You protest with likeminded people.
I think that's a catch-22. If you organize a protest and you get into a group. You're very likely to be bombed.
We are saying a member of this collective, is responsible for the behavior of other members of that collective. And until they fix the collective behavior, they cannot leave the kill box. That's unethical, that's immoral, that's collective punishment
It’s not. Fighting a war to defend yourself isn’t collective punishment.
You seem to be advocating that Israel should just let Hamas launch rockets and kill their civilians. I think that’s a horrible take on things.
I'm advocating that Israel should allow refugees to leave the combat area. I'm saying no children should die in strategic bombing. There isn't a Hamas armored core resisting the Israeli Air Force. There was total military domination of both the skies and the land. This is asymmetric occupation.
Just so we're clear, if your goal is to end Hamas. But you don't want to actually do the police work on the ground. The best scenario is to create a land bridge between the West Bank and Palestine and allow the Palestinian authority to send troops, facilitators, bureaucrats, into Gaza.
They can leave. They just can't go into Israel and Egypt doesn't want them.
Who has said they would take the refugees? Nobody.
When you spend years attacking your neighbors and supporting terrorism, you find yourself with limited options.
And in our scenario the 16-year-old girl with the baby and Dead family, she has spent years attacking her neighbors? And she must suffer for it? This is the disconnect we're not agreeing on.
They cannot leave. It's literally a closed prison.
She isn't suffering for it. She can't leave because nobody wants her.
Israel isn't bombing a house to punish anyone. They are bombing a house to kill combatants trying to kill them.
That is why it isn't collective punishment. They are fighting a war and not punishing people.
Buy your own admission they're denying food and water and medicine into Gaza. That is also definitional collective punishment.
The whole daddy's home system and the up to 20 collateral budget for strikes inside of Gaza also speaks to collective punishment
You seem to be operating from the theory that as long as there's any military justification, or rationale, it's not collective punishment. Collective punishment is highly effective from a military perspective. There is no denying that. The reason we say collective punishment is terrible, is because your externalizing the pain onto people uninvolved.
You keep trying to define collective punishment as something you don't like and not by the laws of warfare.
I asked you to define the laws of warfare, and you link to the Wikipedia page about collective punishment. I quoted the definition from Wikipedia. This fits that definition. I'm operating by your own rules.
That definition doesn't fit the scenario.
Let's see you articulate exactly how this is collective punishment.
https://hackertalks.com/comment/3556166
You are trying to redefine the situation.
The situation is simple: Hamas declared war on Israel, and Israel is fighting Hamsas. They are not punishing anyone but fighting a war.
Israel's motivation isn't to punish anyone. It is to stop Hamas. Punishment has to happen for it to be punishment.
@wintermute_oregon well...motivation can be tough to deduce, I can see why some people might look at #Israel sideways. But, the #IDF is largely not doing anything outside the normal scope of war.
People who have not trained for war or been in war, often don't get how shitty war is.
Now after this is all done, I do think the US needs to pressure Israel into dealing with the issue.
I am not going to pretend I know what the solution is but we can't have these wars every few years.
My concern is no solution will appease all sides.
@wintermute_oregon Okay to be fair, I in general support #Israel but the siege on #Gaza at the very least constitutes as collective punishment to some degree, intentional or unintentional as it might have been.
I agree the water, food and medical care are potentially collective punishment and at least against the rules of war.
The assault is not.
I’m not pleased Israel hasn’t done more to provide food, water and medical care.