Title and image source from this Mastodon toot by [email protected]. I even took the damn title because I couldn't think of anything more apt.
As always, respect my trans homies or I make your pronouns was/were.
this post was submitted on 15 Apr 2024
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There's a lot of subtext in today's culture that, while never explicitly stated, boils down to "men bad". So, as a man, it's really self-esteem boosting to hear from people who want to be men, who like men and masculinity. Men get very little appreciation in today's society, and I don't just mean as individuals. I mean masculinity as a gender is not really appreciated as much as I think we need it to be.
That's the situation women have experienced since the dawn of time. Most of the negativity felt by those trans guys and the cis guy OP came from "woman bad." Not manly is another way of saying womanly. Which would be fine if it weren't considered inherently bad. Many of the denigrating words in our language are directly misogynistic and many more are indirectly so. So while you're appreciating your masculinity, please try to do so without depreciating femininity. In fact, embrace your own femininity! There's nothing bad about it.
Wat
What?? That doesn't make any sense. How is "men bad" actually just "women bad"??
Or are you just chiming in with a totally unrelated point about how women also have it bad in society? If so, I agree, but I don't see the relevance.
I think there are two similar but different points being made by both of yall
The other commenter is referring to when a man is insulted by being called "not manly" which has the subtext of "feminine bad"
And you're seemingly talking about when someone is called masculine, but use subtext to insinuate that it's a bad thing.
Both can be hurtful to a man, and one is directly tied to sexism against women. I'd argue both are caused by biases pushed by patriarchal ideals. So similar ideas but a bit different
I thought I was pretty clearly talking about society calling masculinity bad, so I don't understand what prompted that response. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.
His point is that "man bad" only happens because we did "women bad" for millennia. We spent so long hating on women that,to get to equality, we need to swing the other way for a bit.
But rest assured, men are already very much valued in society. That's why everything is tailored towards us and we make more money for doing the same shit. You probably don't notice it though, because it's just "how things are".
You got my point, and also exemplify it, by saying "his point." We're all guys here on Lemmy, right, that's just how things are, eh? (Tbf, I landed in here from All. But that's the sneaky thing about women: we're everywhere!)
"there's literally dozens of us!"
But sorry about that. I'm still working on degendering my default speech.
I don't think we need to swing the other way. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Can't we just strive for equality?
No, and that's very silly.
Let's lay someone slapped you in the face everyday for a week. Could you turn around and simply forgive? Not press charges, not yell at them, just simply forgive. I know I would struggle to do it. And that's just my face for 7 days, not an entire lifetime of being pushed around.
You're expecting 50% of the population to have Jesus levels of forgiveness. That is very silly.
It's something to aspire to. I'm not demanding they forgive. I'm asking they try not to become the thing they hate.
And for the record I don't think we're in much danger of that. Women are not in power in the world. The world is still mostly controlled by men, and most of the women who are in power don't seem concerned with punishing men for the sins of their fathers.
But it is a dangerous and toxic mindset for anyone to have.
Is it though? Is it dangerous for a rape victim to be like "men suck"? That doesn't seem dangerous to me in any way. Just seems like a reasonable response to a hard life.
That'd account for like 20% of all women if you give those people a pass.
No raindrop believes it's responsible for the flood. In aggregate, these viewpoints are dangerous. I remember seeing it happen in real time on the original red pill subreddit...must have been 10 years ago. For a long time, men would come there, men who had been hurt by women. For a while, there was balance, there was a community of men to help them work through their feelings of anger and resentment. But it became too much, there were just too many angry men, and we all know what happened to it.
Hmm. Perhaps. Perhaps these opinions would go away if women stopped being hurt.
Don't blame the swelling. It's just a response to the infection.
Proper medical care involves treating both the cause and the symptoms.
I'm glad the analogy is holding so well.
You only treat the symptoms when doing so improves the quality of life of the patient. Brain swelling, you try and reduce the swelling. Sprain an ankle that's swollen, treating that swelling impedes healing so you only do so for the patient's ease of motion.
However, in the case of women, treating their anger doesn't help them. It helps men.
You don't think women being angry and bitter hurts women? I know of at least one woman irl who was headed down a very dark path until I and others pulled her out of the hate spiral.
We talk a lot about incels and redpill and whatnot because they're dangerous to women, but what is less mentioned is how absolutely toxic it is to those in the ideology (which is itself an interesting men's issue, the way something tends to only be a societal problem once it threatens women or children).
Women who go down the angry misandrist path have the same problems: it's just not a healthy place to be, mentally.
Women being angry doesn't hurt women.
People being angry in general hurts themselves.
We don't need to frame it any more than that, and especially not in the context here. Otherwise it just screams "whataboutism" and gives the red pill people and excuse.
Context is always important.
I mean, sure, I thought we were just on a more or less unrelated sidebar conversation. Doesn't have much to do with the topic of the post. I just took issue with that one suggestion that it's okay for women to be angry/misandrist against men, since men did it to women. That's about the extent of the context, for me.
I didn't mean to negate your whole point, more like "welcome to the club."
Trans men and cis men with feminine attributes face lowered status and abuse because female=less. Trans men face a different kind of abuse because they are seen as trying to assert their membership in the "superior" group. This is all in addition to the abuse they all face for simply being other than the "norm".
There's definitely a smattering of full-on "man bad" out there, but don't mistake "that man bad" or "patriarchy bad" for "all men bad" or "manliness bad" (assuming it's a healthy manliness and not toxic masculinity).
Society is still pretty tipped in favor of men, just look at car safety tests and medicine trials, both of which routinely exclude women entirely.
Ah, okay, that makes sense. Sorry, I just assumed you were refuting my point. I agree with everything you're saying. A lot of times whenever someone brings up male struggles, someone chimes in with "we shouldn't worry about this because women have it worse", so I might be a bit overly sensitive.
That's okay, I totally get that. It often happened (perhaps still is, haven't been there in awhile) in Reddit 2X that a thread about a woman's problem would be brigaded by men saying they had it worse, overwhelming the initial discussion because of their greater numbers. I certainly don't mean to do that, even if we did have the numbers.