This comment section: "Actually I'm pretty sure the bike fell over for reasons unrelated to the stick"
this post was submitted on 21 Mar 2024
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I read this statement of yours my initial reaction is not very complimentary. Instead of making assumptions on what you mean and assuming the worst, I'm interested in your view to see if I would find validity with it, or if my initial reaction was sound. Do you have any source you'd consider objective on this you'd recommend me reading to explain your position/definition on this?
A simple search with the keywords "men" and "loneliness epidemic" should pull up plenty of resources on the topic. I'm on mobile right now and don't feel like doing a whole deep-dive but here's an article from NASW
Quote:
There's plenty of debate to be had for whose "fault" this is, but the fact that young men are facing the brunt of the loneliness epidemic is a matter of fact that's reinforced by countless polls.
Instead of me doing some rando search and assuming those were your views, I was asking for examples/articles on your views. I don't think you want Joe Rogan or Tate talking for you, do you? Both of those assholes show up in those broad searches.
'Gender roles appear to contribute to male adolescent loneliness. “In most cultures, men are expected to provide. Men are expected to lead,” says Romero. '
I don't disagree that these ideas exist. Some cultures far more than others. In most western cultures however, the embrace of acknowledging the contributions and strengths of women work to combat this. The recognition that they've had it bad for hundreds of years and this new problem with men is a short term whiplash.
Men should reject these ideas that men are the default providers or leaders. Believe those are true is an irrational trap. Men can be leaders or providers, but so can women.
What?
"Have they tried rejecting their depression? what, are they stupid?"
This is how it feels, and the reality of actually existing, Men are frequently valued based off of their potential(earning or otherwise) in the real world, just by saying you reject it isn't going to make this suddenly not true and just clear everything up in your life.
The solution to a young mans worry about his potential and place in life is... acknowledging the contributions and strengths of women? that is an opinion.
Congrats! I never said that. First, Clinical Depression is a serious matter and shame on you for trying to suggest that any amount of just thinking differently would change the outcome. There are documented medical causes and treatments by qualified psychiatrists. Millions of people suffer from Clinical Depression and its a serious matter. For those in need, I highly recommend seeking help. There's no shame it in. We're all broken and need help sometimes.
However, we're not talking about Clinical Depression. We're talking about social and cultural norms about the role of men and the disillusion that arises when those old ideas don't match today's reality.
By who? Who's opinion do you care about that is making that judgement of you? What is THEIR motive for judging you such?
Of course not. If you're looking for a 'silver bullet' solution you're not going to find one. Humans a irrational, greedy, hurt, self interested, and angry. Welcome to life. However, recognized what is important to you instead of seeking validation from others is the start.
The acknowledgement is that women have faced many of these same questions for hundreds or thousands of years. This isn't new. Its just new to young men. That recognition should do a few things:
Oh my bad.
This you?
Rejecting ideas -> changing the way they think
And not only that, you for some reason think that everyone should change their opinions to match your world view.
Sorry, I reject your giant wall of pedantry and goal post moving.
I’m not the one you’re responding to, but I have a recent, relevant, non-biased video here that discusses the issue from a mental health standpoint.
Dude, I just watched the first 30 seconds of that video.
The way that it is edited tells me that it is written for entertainment rather than informing (the quick cuts), intended to emotionally manipulate the audience (listen to the music), and likely biased because it is using an interview / podcast format. This is a secondary source of information, rather than a primary source.
Good sources to read and share are primary sources e.g. peer reviewed research articles. If there are a research articles given in the video, then you should be sharing those, not the video.
Here is an example of an article that is related to men and loneliness:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6142169/
I don't have time at the moment for the whole 1h and 30 min, but I listened to the first 7 min and saw the topic titles for the remaining. So far its pretty agreeable ideas (Each person is responsible for their own happiness. Its not 'owed' to you by someone else. Seeking pure external validation is a path to ruin.) However, so far this doesn't support the idea posted before of "young men are victims" yet. I will listen to the rest though before passing judgment.
Why do you need to assign victimhood to a factor of modern existence? We're all hyperconnected and lonely as fuck.
https://ourworldindata.org/social-connections-and-loneliness
They're fixating more on the "man" part than the "loneliness" part.
I am, because many of the worst arguments I've seen revolve around men believe they are entitled to the affections of others no matter how toxic their own personality is. I want to make sure @[email protected] 's argument isn't that.
Loneliness ≠ not getting affection.
I completely agree, however some people make that mistake. I wanted to make sure that wasn't what we were talking about here.
I think the fact that you're instantly declaring that this needs to be addressed indicates a clear bias. You can determine bias through discourse, there is quite literally no need for adversarial behavior (which is exactly what you've exhibited, similarly to what I'm exhibiting now).
Young men are lonely and suffering, with millenials many of those young men are becoming middle aged men. That statement will never imply that young men, old men, men period are deserving of affection simply for being.
Furthermore, people like you are a big part of the reason men have a difficult time conducting reasonable discourse on these topics. You like to act as if you're arguing in good faith but the reality is you're just as prejudiced as the next bigot.
Of course I'm biased. Everyone is biased in some direction at some level. I'm even waving giant flags saying I have bias, but that I'm interested in having my positions challenged because if I'm wrong, I want to be corrected, but that requires exchange of facts and ideas. I'm completely transparent about that. Are you claiming to be 100% impartial?
I've asked people to explain their positions instead of making assumptions about them and putting words in their mouths. I don't know any other way to give those I'm talking to any more benefit of doubt or clear space to make their positions known. I have been trying very hard to avoid adversarial behavior. I've been met by almost nothing but adversarial responses, strawmanning, and posters making nefarious assumptions about my motives. Look at your own post. I agreed with your assertion that Loneliness ≠ not getting affection, and for that agreement with you you respond to me with vitriol.
I have not yet seen one reply to my posts that is offering ideas about a pathway to address these issues with young men. Its as though discourse has stopped simply at "awareness", which I acknowledge is important, but zero pathways for the young men experience where to go afterward at an individual level. I'm discussing with reasonable discourse. I welcome you to join the conversation on the subject in your following reply about how these young men can be helped going forward.
There is an enormous amount of irony in your accusations of me when the one of the perspectives I've been introducing to this conversation has been attempting to show that others have experienced much of the same issues, and it looks like you're handwaving all of that away. Women have faced some of this already, and you call me a bigot for pointing that out. Should I then accuse you of misogyny as you have accused me of bigotry? Is it possible your experience is so poisoned you can't recognize my own personal acknowledgements about my imperfections I bring and my engagement good faith discussion?
If you're interested in discussing the topic, I'm still open to it. If you just want to exchange barbs, that doesn't help either of us or the young men in question. What's your choice?
What's the term, sea lioning?
That is the exact term.
You're choosing barbs then? See ya.
If we knew each other in real life, I'd pretend to be deaf.
If you really mean that then you don't need to pretend. There's a "block user" lemmy feature. If you're agreeing with @[email protected] and think I'm disingenuous, you'll do us both a favor.
I'm not doing that. @[email protected] is. I generally disagree with that idea, but before I pass judgment I'm willing to listen to arguments. Thats exactly what I'm doing. Listening to arguments.
Why are you so quick to judgment when you don't know what people think or believe?