this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2024
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It's disappointing to see this kind of stuff still happening. Adults do not act this way. Do better, Linus.
Yes, they do... I see it every day on the street while driving home.
I don't think car commuters necessarily make for a good example of adult behavior - in fact, the opposite tends to be true.
No, I meant other drivers. I'm not a nervous (cussing) driver, but most I've seen are. You should hear the stuff that comes out of these people's mouths, my god! I had no idea grown ups could act that way.
Once this guy bumped me from the back, I got out, no real damage, just a scratch, plus I don't really care, a car is a means to an end for me, takes me from point A to point B. So, I didn't even offer to exchange insurance info (it was his fault, so in the end, he doesn't get compensated at all). But this guy... he started cursing at his luck, and then just raised his voice at me and asked "you couldn't stop 20cm down, could you 😒"... and I just gave him a confused look and got in my car. I mean, really? Over a fender bender? It wasn't even a real scratch, it was just paint transfer.
It seems that we are in agreement, no? That a lot of car commuters behave like children?
Oh, I missed the car part in car commuters 😁, sorry 👍.
Mistakes in the Linux kernel can cause damages that are measured in millions and even get people killed.
If you can't be bothered to focus on your work and get criticism when you fuck up, work on something else.
Linus' message here isn't personal, his criticism is limited to the product created by the person. Something that any mentally healthy adult should have no problem with.
There's no need to yell at someone to convey what's wrong with their code.
None whatsoever, in fact.
Sir, email is text based communication, no yelling was involved.
ARE YOU SURE YOUR DISPLAY AND THE VOICE IN YOUR HEAD IS NOT LOUDER WHEN READING THIS?
Shouting near someone may cause damage to the hears. Don't do that. Capital letters let me understand you are emotional, but cause no earing loss.
Stop yellliiiinggguuuh!
You write "thanks for being so diligent, Linus, and forcefully correcting people when it's required" oddly. Typo?
Did you know that you can be diligent without yelling at people?
Linus has full control over what code makes it into the kernel, yelling is not required to accomplish that.
Yes, adults act this way.
On the other hand, adults do not act as if the world revolved around their precious-oh-so-precious feelings, or as fragile little pieces of junk that break apart unless handled very, veeeery carefully.
If my boss ever spoke to me like that about a mistake, I would straight up quit. Either be respectful or get fucked, that goes doubly so for a non-profit relying on the good will of contributors.
I think Linux has grown beyond the good will from contributors. I got the sense most folks do this as part of their job.
So it's not your boss. It's someone who you have to make happy to do your job. And your boss can't help. Quitting won't help. Not if you want to work on the kernel.
In that case, the high stakes world of kernel management is probably not for you.
Please leave and give me the job instead. It's the fucking Linux kernel we're talking about; mistakes can mean many, MANY bad things happening to production environments
Your boss would probably do worse, and fire you instead. Now it isn't just your fee fees being violated, it's your living wage disappearing.
As such, this comparison isn't really useful.
Only a shit boss would fire someone for making mistakes instead of correcting them.
Also drop the whole pretentious right whinger act, you’re not a tough guy online.
Most bosses are shitty.
I'm not a right winger, nor acting as one. Stop making shit up / assuming shit about other users as a diversion tactic, and stick to the discussion.
This comment is giving me a lot of 'rightwinger calling others snowflakes'-vibes.
Did you know that yelling is not a particularly effective technique pedagogically?
I'll copy and paste what I just told another poster, assuming the same shit: I’m not a right winger, nor acting as one. Stop making shit up / assuming shit about other users as a diversion tactic, and stick to the discussion.
Also, don't be disingenuous. I'm not calling anyone a snowflake here; as I've already highlighted across this thread that this shit is rooted in human nature. You do this, I do this, everyone does this, it is not a "snowflake thing", even if problematic. Is this clear???
Emphasis mine. If you're treating adults as if they were kids, as shown by the reference to pedagogy, then you're being far more offensive than Torvalds.
Also, Torvalds is a kernel developer. He is not a teacher. It is not his job to stop kernel development to teach PR submitter #91294556 "oh my little poor thing! We seem to be really confused with this function, aren't we? Yes, we are! Here, let Mr. Linus help us, clueless thing. Aren't we happy today? If you understood it, then say «YAY! THANK YOU MR. LINUS!»".
Side note: it just clicked me that you guys are being culturally insensitive and imperialistic, given that a lot of Torvalds' no-bullshit behaviour is likely cultural in nature.
I'll concede that I don't know what political affiliations you have, but you are definitely acting like many of them do.
Pedagogy does not refer to teaching children, it refers to teaching in general. Teaching others when working with software is expected, and it is expected to do so in an effective manner.
The fact that you think that developers are not expected to teach is telling that you either don't work as one, or have only worked in ineffective organizations.
Now you're just grasping at straws, and this continues the trend of acting like a right-winger which I mentioned before.
For what it's worth, I've worked with plenty of Finnish developers - none of them consider yelling at their peers to be an important part of their culture.
If I tell you my political affiliation, will you stop with this bloody stupid attempt of argumentum ad hominem?
I'm mostly Trotskyist, but influenced by Bakunin style anarchism and a few things of the Fabian Society. I don't usually discuss politics through this account but you can see signs that I'm Marxist here, and signs that I'm socially progressive here.
The issue being discussed is completely orthogonal to politics.
Finally some actual argument. I hereby retract the point concerning infantilisation, then.
The point about screaming ("think on the feelings!") still applies however. He's dealing with adults, not children. You're expected to
(You're also expected to not be assumptive as a brick, but... eh.)
You know what's expected when working with software? Working with software. Stopping the development to spoonfeed others is at most secondary.
And even then, Torvalds went out of his way to instruct the muppet in question on what he did wrong. (You probably didn't bother checking the context of the utterance, right? Go figure.) And that "AGAIN" shows that he did it multiple times, and the other guy was not correcting his mistake.
"This is wrong cuz I said so, chrust me" is not an argument.
Refer to what I said at the start.
Anecdotal evidence, "chrust me" style. Plus outright distorting what I said, thus straw man. *rolls eyes*
At this rate it's somewhat clear that you are really eager to be at least disingenuous, if not worse (irrational). Since there's another poster trying to back up similar reasoning as yours, minus the blatant idiocy, I'll simply disregard your further "contributions".
~~"Thank you for your contribution! Sadly, it was rejected. But don't feel discouraged, try it again!"~~ Your comment is garbage and you are not contributing jack shit with this discussion.
Yeah it's absolutely disgusting and disappointing that it's 2024 and people still try to code into the kernel in such a sucky and absolutely moronic way that they have to get set straight by The Linus.
Did you know that it's entirely possible to criticize someone else's code without yelling at them?
Of course it's possible. It's also possible to not criticize people's code at all and just accept whatever code that barges in.
It's all situational. This is a "Linus retort" situation.