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Families of hostages storm Knesset meeting after Netanyahu rejects Hamas offer
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 22 Jan 2024
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But you do that in every post...
You have misread or misunderstood my point of view, then.
Everytime someone cites some horrible atrocity, I take five minutes to look into it and every time it is more complicated than presented and always involves mitigating circumstances on one side and exaggeration and reckless disregard for human life on the other.
Someone says "oh Israel indiscriminately bombed this apartment building and killed a hundred people." And you look it up and find out that before the bombing, Israel called every cell phone in the area and fired warning shots, and that the 100 people in the building were a Hamas commander and his extended family, who he forced to stay behind specifically so that they would be killed, so that gullible westerners would be tricked into sympathizing with an actual terrorist organization.
Do you agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization that must be eliminated for the good of the Palestinian people?
I think a lot of us noticed this and maybe you don't notice it yourself, but literally when presented with any terrible unspeakable thing the IDF has done, you somehow are able to find an excuse for them... Sometimes you admit they did war crimes, but you never take it to the next level.
Honestly just saying this because I've been discussing things with you for days and it's just something I noticed.
Yeah I appreciate your point of view but the evidence is patiently obvious that there is no formal campaign of genocide or "indiscriminate bombings," and there is a very simple and evidence-based explanation for the high number of civilian casualties.
Can you admit that high civilian casualties is the goal of Hamas, that such martyrdom and human shields are two their weapons?
Can you admit that even if Israel was at fault in the manner you suggest, that Hamas is nevertheless at least 50% at fault for refusing or inciting the civilians to ignore every warning and stay behind to be bombed?
No one is a human shield because they live where they live. The IDF is bombing schools and shelters and universities. Hard pill to swallow, but yes...
I'm sure many here have tried to explain this to you over and over... It's not hard, just go and read about what a human shield is.
Goodbye and have a nice life. I do hope you one day understand, though I don't place any hopes too high on it.
Hamas built tunnels under the schools and shelters and university.
Again. When they launched terrorist attacks from their tunnels, underneath schools and shelters and university, digging under the foundation, isn't it Hamas that made those buildings inhabitable?
The whole place needs to be paved over and rebuilt because of the unsafe tunnels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shields_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
Just fyi for other people reading, proximity shielding is questionable and unlike classical or basically real human shielding.
Here, some more Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield
Sorry, not really replying to you in particular, but it's hard to let this one slip. Proximity shielding is horse-shit invented by hateful people to justify killing civilians. Israel demonstrates a classic use of this.
I agree human shields could be used to cover up war crimes.
On the other hand, possibly does not equal probability.
Which do you find more credible?
Every single time something explodes, there's Hamas to say "no members of Hamas, no weapons, and no tunnels were present at the location. Everyone killed was an innocent civilian." Obviously you must agree: that cannot possibly be true every single time. Because of that, I don't give much credibility to Hamas's self-serving statements about who was killed and who was not.
Israel's explanations are at least plausible.
I really wish you would stop saying such illogical things.
There being X number of Hamas members (which I never denied and I doubt anyone here did) doesn't justify killing tens of civilians. You seem to think Palestinian life is worthless.
I actually believe that every life is important and equal, that every death diminishes us all. I just disagree that there is any moral obligation to not engage a valid military target when:
A. The civilians present are there as part of the enemy's formal strategy of using human shields; and
B. There is a reasonable warning.
You show me where the dead civilians were not either voluntary or involuntary human shields, where there was no warning, and where there was no valid military target, and I'll join you in calling it a war crime.
Whenever someone has tried, with literally thirty seconds of research the key details of what they've claimed falls apart. Mostly, there have been warnings before every bombing.
Not sure about those tank shells today at the training center. As I said, if not, I'll call it a war crime right there with you. War is awful and every war kills innocent people. I also believe a little war with Hamas is better than a massive war with Iran, which is where we will end up if the civilized world just lets Hamas and similar ideologies start having their own countries as a reward for making effective use of human shields.
Can you really say my logic is flawed? Seems nonfalacious and straightforward. I can see how it sounds calous, but that's emotion, not logic.