this post was submitted on 29 Jun 2023
20 points (100.0% liked)
flashlight
2971 readers
99 users here now
Portable illumination
Rules:
- Be excellent to each other
- Don't be the reason we need to make more rules
Related:
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I can fit a 14500 light in my watch pocket, but not an 18350, and few 16430's. It's just those extra couple of millimeters. If I really want slender, I still have a couple old 3*AAAA (8420) Streamlight Stylus lights kicking around. Low-CRI and only 11 lumens, but thin AF and intrinsically safe (Class I, Div.1/Zone 1 ATEX). There simply aren't any AAA/10440 lights that pique my interest, and the only 10180 that does is already in my collection.
Acebeam and Lumintop have them in USB-C. I don't know the CDR on the Acebeam, but the Lumintop is rated 4A and I suspect Acebeam uses the same battery with a different wrap. There's also a few micro-USB one's, but they suffer a combination of lower mAh, micro-USB, and low CDR that I'd go with the Acebeams in anything that wouldn't be better off with a Vapcell H10.
The TS10 can draw up to 7A on Turbo, and a D2 running both channels at once will draw 5A, so I wouldn't use them in a light over 800 lumens. However, most other 14500 lights, or a D2 in pure channel-switching mode will do just fine. You'll need to ask Hank to tweak the D2 to be able to take a button-top though.
Oh that's interesting about the Acebeam and Lumintop 14500's. I had looked on the usual battery vendor sites and didn't see them, or 3.6 volt 16340's either. I remembered the Fenix 16340's though.
The AAAA is too exotic a cell and it would surprise me if they are available rechargeable. If you don't mind an internal lipo, the Nitecore Tube is also a very thin light that fits in a watch pocket easily. It is about 9mm thick, though 20mm wide.
Regarding the 7 amps, I just don't have enough lumen obsession any more to particularly want that in a small EDC light, though of course that is just me. There are some relatively thin but very powerful pouch cell lights from Nitecore and others if those interest you. They don't excite me very much.
Hank has generally been unwilling to accomodate any but the shortest possible cells, and makes other compromises in his lights (like the flat springs for the boost driver configs) to make the light as short as possible. Imho this is unfortunate. He is also lumen obsessed. I was mostly into flashlights during CPF's heyday in the early 2010's, so I'm still used to the idea of 200 lumens being very bright for a small EDC. These days, Anduril and being able to reflash the light is of more interest to me than raw power.
I actually found some NiMH ones.
Though my 14500 lights are my most-used, I usually also have an 18650 light on me; usually my D4V2, but sometimes my DT8 that runs cooler than my D4V2 at a given level. One is more comfortable in my pocket, the other feels better in my hand.
We have a lot of other makers that are like, "Bulk be damned", or who make flashlights that are the equivalent of a base model Toyota. At that point, just get a Streamlight. That market segment is oversaturated. One needs to stand out unless they can make it up in volume.
Hank stands out by making lights that are more like roadsters, and doing it well. No back seat, designed a bit more for performance than economy, and basically geared towards a different demographic than those looking for a 40 MPG grocery-getter sedan that will never see a freeway. Nobody buys a Miata for the trunk space or seating capacity. And how many people buy a Ferrari for it's MPG? Those who value efficiency over power will likely go Zebra anyways.
Everyone has different needs and desires, and Hank fills a niche that other makers ignore, even if the lights he makes are not ones that suit your tastes/needs. Zebra builds objectively-good lights that I would never consider, and it's for reasons other than lumens or being as finicky about batteries as a Hanklight.
I know many people who think nobody needs a car with more than 50 HP, and it's telling that most of them don't drive. Driving an old 70-HP Toyota on the 405 has taught me the importance of having more power than you think you might need even if you don't often use it, and how what was more than enough 35 years ago isn't always enough just because it was the best we had in the past.
When it comes to lights, I prefer something that barely feels 500 lumens over something that pukes it's guts out trying to do 200 even if I only need 50 most of the time. I do more with my lights than just look for pens under desks and try to not trip over my cat on the way to the bathroom at 3am. There's enough times where I need 1000+ lumens to be glad I have that option. I like being able to take any light I have and shine it across my parking lot in case someone (usually a racoon) is messing with my car.
There's more to lumens than just marketing, and there's enough folks who need power and would rather carry get it from smol-lights.
As one who grew up when 64KB RAM and 170KB storage was a lot, and 8 MHz was fast. I remember when 1200 mAh at 3.6V took three sub-C's instead of a single 14500. My tastes have evolved too much over the decades to say I'm used to that though. I was at one point, but there's also a point where I was three feet tall and didn't need to pay bills. Time changes many things. Having used (and broken) many 14-lumen 2*AA Maglites when it was among the best small EDC lights available, I've really loved how far we've come.
Interesting about the NiMH AAAA's. The 200 lumen lights of 2010 were because of LED limits back then. Batteries are a little bit better now, but LEDs are ridiculously better.
I don't see Hank as trying to make the smallest possible lights, given that the D4v2 and D4K are almost the same thickness, and the D2 is huge for a 14500 light. He is trying to make them as short as possible, but doesn't care that much about diameter. He also ships a rather gaudy Anduril setup, so the first thing I had to do when I got mine was figure out how to set it to something a little more sedate.
Of course everyone has their own usage patterns and obsessions. I do like very small lights, like the Skilhunt E3A that I carry most of the time. I sometimes think of dialing back its power level (by changing a resistor) to get more runtime, but in practice I'm not likely to bother.
The 2AA Minimag was supposedly the most popular flashlight of the 1980s-90s. It might have gotten 14 lumens with brand new batteries and bulb. Over most of its runtime and bulb life, it was more like 5 lumens. It was focusable, but still, people hugely underestimate what a few lumens can do in a dark environment.
If the D2 were a single-channel light, used smaller-than-3535 emitters, or had uselessly-small/bad optics, I'd be more inclined to agree. It's still smaller than my Rider RX though, while having the choice between twice the power or twice the functionality. And it's definitely smaller than carrying two separate 14500 lights, which is basically what it is. As one who uses UV for work, I rather like needing to carry just one light.
I'm not sure what you mean by "gaudy" here. Do you mean, "capable of going past 100 lumens"? I'm not the type to run my flashlights at the ceiling any more than I drive with my gas pedal slammed to the floor, so I just leave Turbo enabled and the ceiling at default so I don't need to reconfigure when I need more than 35/150 delivers.
That's why I love ramping UI's like Anduril, and wish Skilhunt, Zebra, and Convoy had better mode spacing. Skilhunt's not bad though. Well, at least the M and H series that have multiple levels.
That Maglite was only really enough in a "better than nothing" way. Yeah, I could walk around the ship without tripping over the lower lip of watertight hatches, but between the low lumens, low CCT (with resulting drop in CRI), and narrow beam even when set to max spill, plus the ringiness, found it difficult working on live circuits due to the beam quality. For things like working inside a live breaker panel or going through an unlit hangar bay without tripping over tiedown chains, it really helps having a bit more flood, and enough lumens to support making an entire circle evenly-bright. Between that and breaking at least a dozen of them doing things that my Hanklights didn't even feel despite their reputation for fragility, I actually stopped caring about flashlights for a while until technology evolved. But that's what the ship store had, and with no internet and the nearest store (or land) thousands of miles away, I used what was available. It's also why I prefer high-CRI flooders in the 4500-5700K range; to make up for years of using low-quality lights.
The main thing I remember prompting the word "gaudy" was the setting of the aux leds to some kind of breathing, color-changing mode. I changed it, like I think most people do, to show the battery level. I also set the ramping to 7 steps instead of stepless, though that's a matter of preference. 2 click turbo is there but until a few weeks ago I hardly ever used it for real (as opposed to impressing myself by lighting up trees while outside). Instead I generally use level 1 (supposedly 10 lumens) or click up to level 3 or so if I want more illumination. Ironically, the thing I now use turbo for is charging up GITD tape, which I got a roll of recently. I don't know the lux level, but a few seconds at 3 inches from the light is enough to fully charge the tape.
Don't get me wrong, I love my D4v2, but I feel like there is some design confusion to Hank lights in general, with the D4v2 being a lucky hit. The battery crushing, too-short tailcap spring in the boost converter configs, the battery fussiness in the M44 per the recent review, the inability to accomodate protected cells (which would take a slightly longer battery tube and allow the use of cells with built in USB charging), etc., all seem like compromises in basic functionality for no gain that I can see. It's not about minimizing the size or weight, as we see with the D2 or the rather heavy DW4. The D2 design has its attractions but I'd frankly prefer an 18650 version.
I liked this old Jim Sexton CPF post about different types of flashaholics (flashlight enthusiasts):
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/cured-of-flashoholism-mahalo-don.216921/page-2#post-2767473
I went through most of those phases, and eventually withdrew from the hobby because of a firmware bug in my Spy 005. Anduril got me back in, but I still mostly refuse to buy microprocessor lights with closed firmware. I think of reprogramming my D2v4 as a one level light of around 100 lumens, with some kind of "secret" escape code if I want to access the rest of the modes. In the sense of that CPF post, it seems to me that Hank's lights (and today's BLF-style lights in general) have not yet really matured.
Ah, "Disco Mode". Yeah, it impresses the Normies, and everyone else will just 7H regardless. I'm a ramping Mode guy, and wish Zebra would put in a ramping mode. I find Turbo nice as a party trick, hand warmer, or improvised heat gun, but rarely as a light source. My UV D2's are better at charging GITD stuff than ungawdly lumens of white light.
I consider the D4V2 to be the Gold Standard. Not the best, but as a light to compare others to. I'm not sure if the KR4 is really all that different from the D4V2, but my KR4, D4V2, and DT8 all have the same dent despite the KR4 being my only boosted Hanklight. As for not being able to use protected cells, I see no sense in allowing a light that will draw 18A to be able to take batteries that max out at 10A. And I have opinions about USB charging that make me consider being unable to use things of questionable quality and reliability a plus. I simply never trusted mini-chargers even before USB existed.
The weight of the DW4 actually makes sense to me. Aside from the actual metal portion of the head and the bezel, it's a D4V2; same parts bins and all. Simplifies logistics. Pretty important for any business doing less than a billion dollars a year. Potentially being over 4000 lumens with a Linear+FET driver as opposed to the boost driver of the TH30 or the (far less powerful) Zebras and Skilhunts has some thermal requirements that can't be met with thin metal. It takes thicker, heavier metal to transfer the heat from where it's generated to where it can be shed. Then there's the layout required to use the same boards and optics as the D4V2. To my mind, it's as small as can be without requiring more DW4-specific parts, and as light as it can be to maintain thermals comparable to a D4V2. Now, if manufacturing were entirely "Print on demand" and all that was required for different models was changing a program in a 3D printer, then I'd fell differently. But I worked manufacturing (mostly as a CNC machinist) for long enough to understand the engineering. The D2 was entirely new from the ground up, which allowed for greater freedom of design.
I don't see myself there. The closest is #3, but even that isn't really close. And it seems outright derogatory towards those who aren't, "A 3D-cell Maglite was good enough for my grandfather, so it's good enough for me and is the only light anyone should ever need!", folks. I'm honestly surprised he didn't yell at the kids to get off his lawn.
That really depends on one's idea of "matured". I've been a bit of a technophile and neophile for half a century. I do not see "matured" as "becoming closer to my tastes as I, personally, get older". My definition is closer to, "Expansion of capability". It's the ability to meet the needs/desires of a wider market, even if that requires a bit of a learning curve to configure it to one's personal tastes. Anduril seems pretty close, and I think Hanklights do as well when you consider how many hardware options he offers. What you describe seems to me to be a simple matter of setting Simple Mode to a single step with Floor and Ceiling adjusted appropriately, then hitting 10H as needed. No need to edit source code and reflash.
This thread is getting long, but:
Only the FET+1 version of the D4v2 drew 18A and from what I can tell, Hank gave up on that some time ago. The present CC drivers take 5A, 7.5A, or 9A depending. I think mine is 7.5A. No idea about the boost driver.
The highest discharge 18350 that I could find with a quick search was 10A (Hank offers an 18350 tube for the D4v2), same as I see for USB charging 18650 (Vapcell P1835A). I also see a 30 amp USB-C 21700 (Acebeam IMR21700H-400A) so for the D4K, that concern simply goes away. Anyway, if the user wants to give up the "hand warmer" mode of a light to have some more flexibility in battery choices, that should be up to the user. So I think you are simply trying to rationalize a shortcoming of this light. My other 18650 light (Fenix BC21R) works fine on both protected and unprotected cells. It came with a protected cell and it's annoying to not be able to interchange that cell between the two lights. The BC21R's brightest mode also heats up too fast to be usable, so the protected cell isn't the limiting factor.
All versions of the D4v2 appear to dent up batteries. The boost version with its flat spring seems to have even worse problems, but I don't have one so am not sure of specifics.
I'm not claiming that the D4v2 is too big or heavy. I find it just right, and I'd actually prefer it slightly bigger, to accomodate protected cells. All I've said is that whatever Hank is after, it doesn't seem to be weight or size minimization. The D4v2 is slightly bigger than a 1xCR123A McLux Sundrop for what it's worth, and weighs about the same because of the Sundrop's heavier titanium construction. And I found the Sundrop to be just about perfect for its era.
I'd consider a mature light as one conceived holistically by the designer in the context of a deep understanding of its intended usage, not compromising its usability as a light source in favor of party tricks or heat gun functions. The Spy 005 was radical but at the same time mature as conceived, even though some bugs then had to be worked out of the implementation. I'd say all the later McLuxes have the same sense of maturity. McGizmo is a real Zen master of flashlights.
As for Hank offering lots of hardware options, that is somewhat true. There is a 35mm battery tube, and a 50mm, and a 65mm. So why is he (and apparently you) he so opposed to a 70mm? I'd buy one. I'd also probably buy a D4K, if it could hold the Vapcell P2150A which is a 76.6mm 21700 with a built in power bank function. (Hmm, maybe that can fit into the D4Sv2 with the 26800 tube and a spacer).
The present linear drivers are also available in 12A, and have a FET. Whatever rating your driver is becomes irrelevant once the FET kicks in though, so most folks will go well past 10A with most emitters. Allowing one the option to put in a battery that may well get tripped by trying to draw 15-30A off of a 10A cell would seems more like a liability than a desirable feature.
If the user wants to have a more powerful light than a 10A cell can power, and is willing to give up the ability to use a battery they have no interest in using anyways, that should also be up to the user. Not all makers have to have the same set of features and specs, and not all lights are for all people. There's a reason why there are so many makers and such a wide variety of lights on the market. I don't see different things being different as a shortcoming.
"Intended usage" means different things to different people. And for a lot of makers, "intended usage" includes selling to people who aren't willing/able to pay $500-2,000 for a flashlight. Not all people who wear a watch wear a Rolex or Patek Philippe. As for the actual light design, some folks legitimately need powerful beams of light for only a moment or two, and not all who want a light that has that power use it only for "party tricks". Taking that away seems to me to compromise a light's usability more than allowing it with the caveat that thermal rampdown exists.
I don't think there's enough people buying boost-driven lights that also want to use protected cells to justify the cost of producing and storing such a low-volume part. However, there are people who would try running a protected cell in a linear+FET light without dropping the ceiling that would complain about their light shutting off when it trips the protection circuit. And while the Acebeam 21700 may have the ability to power a D4K, all it'd take is one person putting that same tube on a DT8K to have the same issue.
The fact is the D4v2 already accomodates one type of battery (the 18350) whose max current is 10A, so adding another shouldn't be different. And I can program the firmware to lock out the highest current levels, or maybe even have it detect the battery voltage sag and limit the current automatically. So more rationalizing. And you ignored that 30 amp USB-C 21700 that can handle anything the D4K can throw at it, if it could only fit in the light.
The Photon II is also a mature light. You can get knockoffs of it for 50 cents on ali express.
I don't know of another light comparable to the D4v2. The D4v2 does everything I want (plus some stuff I don't care about). The one thing missing is a 5mm longer battery tube.
An unprotected 18350 still has a surge rating that can operate the light at reduced levels long enough for thermal rampdown to drop it to lower levels with lower amp draw. A protected cell has a hard cap that shuts the light off completely. Dimmer Turbo is different from, "Hey, my light is broken! HANK SUCKS!". And you ignored the DT8K comment, as well as the logistics around something of such limited demand. The only way around it I can see, which is making it impossible to put the 21750 tube on a DT8K, runs into the same logistics problem. Like I said before, I might feel differently if all manufacturing were "print on demand", but as it stands, it makes perfect sense to me why it is the way it is. Besides, wouldn't a sleeve allow a protected 18650 to fit in a D4K?
Protected 18650 in a D4k is an interesting idea, might work, thanks. I will ask Toykeeper if Anduril could notice current limiting in a protected cell. If it a sudden dropout with no voltage sag leading up to it, then it might be difficult. Still, the same question recurs: why not support protected cells in the D4K? The current limit excuse is gone, with the 30 amp protected cells.
I see the space heater mode as similar to the disco lights, basically a party trick. I can do without both. The BC21R works fine on a protected cell and has a heater mode advertised at 1000 lumens. Bathroom comparison with the D4v2 says the D4v2 is brighter by maybe a half stop, but i have to compare carefully to notice the difference. Both are too bright (they wash out my vision) for close range use anyway, and they heat up too fast for steady outdoor use. A momentary turbo mode can be handy for outdoor distance spotting, but a D4v2 with 219a's and flood optics is the wrong light for that anyway. If I want a thrower I'll buy one for the purpose.
I do realize there is not much differentiation between BLF lights, so buyers look at the lumen spec and pick the biggest number, but some of us are more discerning ;). Anyway, Hank offers all those hardware options, so it seems like a simple matter for him that if you order a D4v2 with a 70mm tube, it can be set to lock out current draw above whatever. That should just be a software setting. I think it was Bill Gates who said 640 lumens should be enough for anyone (oh wait). Didn't you tell me that you yourself don't use the max level of the d4v2 for lighting? My D4v2 does (eyeball guess from BC21R comparison) around 1400, so if it becomes 1000 or a bit lower with a battery swap, I can live with that. I'm pretty sure it dims a little as the battery depletes anyway. I did the bathroom test with a just-charged cell.
I'm having trouble believing the linear driver pulls anything like 18 amps from the battery. That is 60+ watts, 15+ watts per led, and they are not rated for that. I may try some tailcap measurements. It is certainly a waste of battery power, since the leds are way less efficient at such levels. It solves an imaginary problem.
My brightest light really is a 3D incandescent maglight (the notorious Ultimate Stealth Light from CPF). It uses a handmade high current nicad pack and a 100 watt slide projector bulb for around 3000 lumens. You can feel the air around it get warmer when you turn it on. I never use it though.
I don't see what the DT8K has to do with this. I don't particularly want a DT8K.