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Wait are you saying that all Jewish people are Israeli?
Well, is the poster up there saying that all Israelis are terrorists?
Conversely, what would saying "Palestine is the terrorist of the human race imply?" That some Palestinians are terrorists? That many Palestinians are terrorists? That all Palestinians are terrorists?
Well one thing that differentiates is how spread out ethnic Jewish people are, like there are almost as many Jewish people in the US as there are in Isreal, no other ethnicity is spread like that AFAIK.
Sure. Equating Israel with all Jews is just as wrong as equating the state of Israel with all those living within it.
Kay? Somegeek didn't equate israel with all jews, or all those living within it?
And I never said that, either. I was asking whether or not somegeek was equating Israel with all Israelis, since they didn't make a distinction (e.g. by saying "the state of Israel" or "the IDF" or "the Netanyahu administration").
Seems fair in light of the broad statement made by somegeek.
I disagree, I believe it's understood in common parlance. I hate "Iran" not the majority of its peoples but the government that rules it. I've been saying fuck Israel, I have no issues with the majority of Israelis and since for some reason it needs to be said now, I certainly don't have issues with Jewish people because they are Jewish.
Would you apply those same standards to Gaza?
Would you say you hate "Gaza" if you hated the government that rules it, but not the millions of Palestinians living there?
Would you say "fuck Gaza" if you had no issues with the majority of Palestinians?
Because to me, it just seems that people apply wildly different standards. People seem to explain "here is my standard" when talking about one side, and then they absolutely refuse to adhere to their own standard when talking about the other side.
Saying Fuck Gaza is like saying fuck Wyoming, so sure why not? We say fuck Texas, or fuck Florida all the time. Saying fuck Palestine would be the equivalent to Saying fuck Israel. And yes people DO apply different standards. Welcome to being human. Not everything I'd black and white. Biases exists I'm. Not sure why this is apparently taking you by surprise. Let's get Israel out of occupied Gaza, and then we can criticize the Palestinian governments lack of care for its people? Same with Ukraine, I fully support Ukraine, is their government without faults? No, but they're kind of being attacked right now, so critizing them for doing XYZ or not doing XYZ while being bombed is pretty fucking stupid.
The West Bank is ruled by Fatah. Gaza is ruled by Hamas, partly because after Israel withdrew from Gaza, removed all Israeli settlers in Gaza, tore down illegal Israeli settlements and handed over other Israeli infrastructure to the Palestinians, Hamas got into power and never held elections again. Oh, and they also murdered Fatah members and instituted a de facto dictatorship.
So it makes sense to look at Gaza separately from the West Bank.
Well, all right then: are you okay with people saying 'Fuck Palestine" if they just dislike Hamas?
Well if you read what I wrote you wouldn't have asked. Also what does it matter what I am ok with? Am I the arbiter of just ness? Are you ok with people saying fuck Palestine? Or fuck Gaza, or Fuck Israelis or Fuck Israel?
Dude, we're having a personal, one-on-one conversation. If I didn't want to hear your opinion, I wouldn't have bothered asking you a question in the first place.
I'm just interested in why people have a radically different standard for Israel than for Gaza or Hamas or Palestine. I'm interested why people are a-okay with saying "fuck Israel" or "Israel is a terrorist state" or "Israel is committing genocide," but then don't have the heart to use the exact same standards for Gaza/Hamas/Palestine.
And clearly, you don't.
When asked a fairly straightforward question, instead of saying something like "if Hamas does the exact same thing that the IDF is doing, then they deserve the same label," it seems that you're getting all defensive. As if you simply don't have it on your heart to say something like "fuck Hamas."
I may be wrong, but that's certainly how it comes across. And I don't mean to pick on you personally, either. There's a ton of people around who will say "Israel is a terrorist state because they're murdering innocent civilians," but those same people just can't bring themselves to say anything negative about Hamas, even when it's pointed out that Hamas has absolutely zero problems murdering hundreds of civilians and even though Hamas keeps loudly telling everyone that they will keep on murdering innocent civilians in the future, and that anyone who murders innocent Israeli civilians is a hero.
I think that's worth noticing.
I'm not defensive, I'm simply tired of the amount of people who focus on "well hamas" when the issue right now, is Israel bombing the fuck out of innocent Palestinians. I have said fuck hamas countless times. As I said before, it's not black and white. For example I hate that Islam is generally very negative towards LGBT people, and, I know Hamas isn't LGBT friendly, but right now, that's no what needs to be focused on. I'm tried of people excusing the Israel genocide of Palestine because Hamas is horrible. The standards are different because at this exact point in time, Israel is the aggressor, well funded with the best in high tech military Gear, and the choose to flatten parts of Gaza. They make outright lies and claims that are BS, and they keep getting praise for it. As soon as you say something remotely critical of Israel you're called antisemitic. I'm tired of people thinking it's black and white, it's not, I'm tired of having to say " well Israel did this bad thing, but Hamas is bad too" no fucking shit. That's not the point right now. If Israel used their tech actually targeted Hamas leaders ( who are mostly not in Gaza) no one would really complain. No instead they chose to move 1.5million people, out of 2 million, into a war torn hell scape, bombing hospitals, ambulances, schools and homes. And people have the gall to say, "well you didn't say Hamas is bad".
I think describing Israel as a terrorist state because it uses terrorist tactics is totally valid.
I'm not defending the tactics used by the Israeli military.
At the same time, they're using tactics that are pretty similar to the tactics used by the United States in Iraq and in Afghanistan - yet even back then, despite all the opposition took America's military interventions, we didn't see people around the world claim that America was committing genocide or that America was s terrorist state.
Yet those labels are constantly applied to Israel.
Why do you think there's this difference?
Just because no one said that about America doesn't mean this one isn't genocide. Just because one nation got away with it in the past does not make this any less genocide than it is.
Most likely the difference is political. No one could stand in the face of the US when it bombed Iraq, but it's 2023 now and we know better. It took decades to build a strong case against genocide in Israel. It's not a word people toss around lightly.
That's right.
However, if incredibly different standards are being used depending on the nation in question, that certainly raises suspicions that people are not actually criticizing the act (a military intervention to combat a terrorist organization), but rather the nation itself.
If two countries can have the exact same experience (a terrorist attack that killed hundreds of its citizens), react to that in the exact same way (a military intervention determined to root out there terrorist organization at any cost, willingly accepting that thousands of civilians are being killed as "collateral damage"), but one gets accused of committing genocide while the other one gets celebrated (remember "Mission Accomplished" or the spontaneous celebrations when bin Laden was killed?), doesn't that warrant the question why identical actions get treated so differently?
America occupied Iraq and Afghanistan for decades. Why wasn't the same "strong case" never built against America? Why are people accusing Israel of genocide for killing thousands, but nobody has ever bothered accusing America of genocide for causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands?
You say that America is to powerful, that nobody could stand in it's way - but that shouldn't have stopped human rights organizations from saying that America is committing genocide, that shouldn't have stopped the UN from accusing America of genocide, that shouldn't have stopped people to demonstrate in the streets with Iraqi or Afghan flags demanding "free Afghanistan."
Why did none of that happen?
I don't know, what do you think?
Because Israel always gets held to a different standard.
Now the question is: why is that?
No idea. You tell me 🙄
Nah, you have a brain, you know why.
No, I'm really puzzled, please enlighten me.
You're really puzzled that a nation founded as a Jewish ethnostate is being held to an entirely different standard than virtually any other nation in the world? And yet you're here, commenting on the Palestinian-Israel conflict?
Ah yes, poor genocidal Israel is being held to "a different standard" after killing more children and journalists within a month than has ever happened in recorded history.
Poor souls, clearly everyone is only criticising them because they are Jewish, not because they are an apartheid ethnostate (and since fucking when are ethnostates a good thing).
I think you are delusional.
You've never actually opened a history book, right?
We've just been over this.
Your argument would hold water if people criticized other nations doing the exact same thing in the exact same way they criticize Israel.
That's not the case - so something has to be different.
I think your hatred for Israel blinds you.
Dude, who wouldn't hate a genocidal and illegitimate apartheid state? What kind of sad fuck does one need to be to not be able to call them out for their actions?
Exactly.
So why are people not calling out Gaza, which is ruled by a terrorist organization that commits mass murders, mass rape, infanticide and terrorism?
Whatever Hamas did, Israel did to Gaza ten times more. I condemn Hamas. Do you condemn Israel?
I condemn any atrocities committed by any side against innocent civilians.
Doesn't matter whether it's Hamas or the IDF or Islamic Jihad or militant settlers in the West Bank or Hezbollah or Huthi rebels firing rockets into Israel.
Can I ask you why you would say that you condemn Hamas rather than saying "I condemn Gaza" - given that Hamas is being treated as the official representation of the people of Gaza, that Hamas has majority approval in the population of Gaza, that the October 7th attackers came from Gaza, that the rocket attacks are being launched from Gaza, etc?
Because I don't think Hamas are democratically chosen in Gaza. Their approval rates actually dropped a shit ton before the attack. Last election was in 2006, right? With a population of 50% children, and all the people Israel killed, how many of those do you think voted in 2006 or are still alive?
Gaza is not a country. It's an open air prison created by Israel. People there lack basic freedom. I will not condemn them for the actions of a single faction. I should have also been more specific, my problems are not the government of Gaza, but the militant side of it. I will not blame a nation kept behind a wall like dogs to rot and die... I will always blame the aggressor who put them there instead.
So again, I want to ask, do you condemn Israel SPECIFICALLY? Yes/no would be good, thanks.
That's true for the majority of nations in the region, though, isn't it?
Nobody elected the House of Saud to rule Saudi Arabia. Nobody democratically chose the House of Al Thani to rule Qatar. Nobody voted on having the House of Maktoum rule Dubai.
Israel withdrew its troops from Gaza, it evacuated Jewish settlers, it tore down illegal Jewish settlements, it handed over Israeli assets to the Palestinians, it effectively completely handed over control.
It didn't open its borders to Gaza, just like Egypt didn't open its borders to Gaza.
If Gaza is an open air prison, isn't Egypt to blame, too?
People there primarily lack basic freedom because they're being ruled by an Islamist terrorist organization that claims for itself to be the official government of Gaza.
But how is that different from other nations like Saudi Arabia or Dubai or Qatar or Bahrain or Abu Dhabi - other than the fact that those totalitarian regimes are swimming in money, and Palestinians aren't (ignoring the fact that Hamas leadership managed to squirrel away $11 billion for itself)?
I find it hard to draw a line, since the official government of Gaza often just echoes the exact same language used by its terrorist wing.
But let's say it were possible to draw a strict line: would you then be willing to do the same for Israel as well? Are you explicitly drawing a distinction between Likud and e.g. Shas or Labor or Hadash-Ta'al? Or between militant settlers building illegal settlements in the West Bank, and people practicing communal socialism in a kibbutz in Israel proper? Or between people who have been demonstrating for months against the Netanyahu government, and people voting for and supporting Netanyahu?
Or do you just not care, and you'll simply condemn all and anything under the label of Israel?
That's REALLY kind of predicated upon your answer to how you would define Israel or draw distinctions between groups within Israel.
But let me ask you: why do you appear to be so unhappy with a position that condemns any and all violence against innocent civilians? Given how many different sides and factions are committing so many different atrocities, isn't that a reasonable position?