this post was submitted on 25 Oct 2023
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[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

I'd say the basic position, without trying to start a big argument, is that regardless of historical grievances, Israel exists and is not going anywhere. That doesn't mean that its oppression of Palestinians is justified or that settlements in the West Bank aren't counterproductive to peace, or that they haven't committed terrible atrocities.

Be that as it may, none of that can ever excuse what happened three weeks ago. No amount of legitimate grievances can ever justify intentionally slaughtering hundreds of innocent civilians, and given that those attacks were explicitly organized by Hamas, who has the violent destruction of Israel and murder of its citizens as an explicit goal, Israel is justified in eliminating Hamas from ever being a threat again.

That does not mean that they have the right to just flatten Gaza and murder all its residents, which, it needs to be said, it easily could do and is not doing. However, while they certainly could be doing much more to protect the lives of Gazan citizens and should be criticized for not doing so, their fundamental aim of eliminating Hamas and forcibly de-militarizing Gaza is legitimately justified.

Ultimately, a two-state solution is the only realistic path towards some kind of peaceful co-existence, and that is impossible when you have a party like Hamas that is expressly opposed to the existence of Israel and takes action to indiscriminately murder its citizens. Again, that doesn't mean that Israel hasn't also done objectionable things as well, but what it hasn't ever done is drive the IDF into Palestinian villages and start shooting every man, women, and child they see.

Essentially, I support actions that make peace more possible and oppose those that don't. There is no world in which Hamas is part of a productive path to peace. Similarly, I'm also extremely opposed to West Bank settlements and have next to no sympathy for the people that voluntarily move there. They only really began in earnest once Likud gained power, and Likud is also a party that has no real interest in moving towards peace (though thankfully, they're absolutely toast once the fighting is over). However, the lands that were attacked three weeks ago have never been claimed by any Palestinian government and have been recognized as Israel's since 1949.


That's roughly the general liberal pro-Israel approach I see. Likud is bad and needs to go. Israel does a lot of bad things and needs new government (a sentiment shared by a good half of Israelis). Hamas are literal terrorists and absolutely have to go. If you have any genuine questions to ask that isn't just accusing me of being a genocidal maniac, I'm all ears.

[–] Lemminary 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thank you for your well thought-out response. This whole thing is a little overwhelming for me and I'm still trying to inform myself to figure it out. I see horrible from both sides in the news and also good arguments for both sides in the comments. I'm hoping some insight goes a long way!

Btw, before I get flack for being a centrist, which I'm not, I feel this conflict needs an unusual amount of nuance. I'm also thinking that maybe I don't need to take a side when neither party wants peace. It's tough.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

This doesn't get described as the single most intractable geopolitical conflict in the world for nothing!

You're absolutely correct that it's an extremely complicated topic with legitimate grievances on all side. If you want to learn more, I'd just suggest that you make sure to get exposed to narratives on both sides and be retain a healthy amount of skepticism towards any news that comes out and towards anyone that attempts to "simplify" the conflict by stating that their side is unequivocally right. There are some people - on both sides, I might mention - that will say that any attempt to draw attention to the nuance and complexity is simply a conspiratorial effort to erase their obviously correct narrative, and this is obviously not done in good faith. Whenever someone is talking about the conflict (myself included!), always ask yourself what's actually motivating them to say what they're saying and try to figure out if they're legitimately attempting to observe events as they happen and describe them or if they're simply trying to push an agenda that they've already decided is correct.

Also, if I'm correct that you don't live in the region and it doesn't meaningfully affect you, just remember that you don't actually have to have an opinion on every geopolitical conflict in the world! There's much much more to life than politics, and you'll actually lose your mind if you try to learn every detail of every conflict in the world. There's nothing wrong with simply hoping that all sides manage to find a peaceful solution and moving on to touching grass or whatever it is normal people do.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Your comment's great!

But every single time a two-state solution has been pushed forth, Palestine and the Arab League have refused and declared war (which they lost, twice).

[–] burchalka 2 points 1 year ago

This response by BraveSirZaphod really resonates with me, Israeli secular Jew of Russian descent.