this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2023
282 points (96.1% liked)

World News

38978 readers
2884 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What's the disconnect? Do you generally call paying back a debt 'helping the collector'?

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago (1 children)

White South Africans are literally European colonists. Like, I don't mean that in a disparaging way, but in a literal sense. And not in a "We came by and integrated with the local people" sense, but a "We ended up as a privileged European caste in this country".

I don't know how much 'us' you can use with regards to the oppression of Black Africans by European colonists, since we're apparently discussing collective and ancestral guilt.

Do you generally call paying back a debt 'helping the collector'?

No, but that's because debts are legal instruments. I don't have any choice to pay back a debt, short of getting government goons on my ass. What's more, debts (in the modern sense) are clearly defined and separate from ideas of guilt. This is more like a criminal wronging someone and seeking to later make amends when they see the consequences of their actions upon the victim, which I would regard as the criminal 'helping' the victim.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I'm not a European, so you're wrong there bud.

But more importantly, my identity is with the people I share a culture with. I'm first a South African, then a bunch of stuff, and one thing down the line is white.

You're right that I'm the beneficiary of a racist system. The difference is that I have no issues with affirmative action or redress. You criticising me for being white and for decolonisation is like when people criticise Bernie Sanders for being rich and supporting higher taxes. It's a stupid, reductive non-starter of an argument.

Now that my race is out of the way. My country has been looted by European countries, and it continues to be looted by extractive imperialism. Why can't I ask them to pay us back? Where is the contradiction?

As for making amends = helping, most people would disagree. That's a dumb assertion.

[–] Buddahriffic 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Do you accept responsibility for Elon Musk?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lol! For many South Africans, he's the guy we'd go back and teach art if we had a time machine

[–] Buddahriffic 3 points 1 year ago

And I'm sure there's plenty of Europeans who would like to go back in time and sink some colonist boats or convince them the ocean is more trouble than it's worth.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I’m not a European, so you’re wrong there bud.

as a white South African,

I think you may be mistaken as to the nature of ancestry, if you think Europeans are guilty for the crimes committed upon Black Africans but your ancestors are not.

But more importantly, my identity is with the people I share a culture with. I’m first a South African, then a bunch of stuff, and one thing down the line is white.

Is that privilege afforded to Europeans?

You’re right that I’m the beneficiary of a racist system. The difference is that I have no issues with affirmative action or redress. You criticising me for being white and for decolonisation is like when people criticise Bernie Sanders for being rich and supporting higher taxes. It’s a stupid, reductive non-starter of an argument.

My point isn't that you're 'wrong' for being for 'decolonization', my point is that this argument is predicated on the concept of ancestral guilt. It's not that Pierre of France, scrubbing toilets in a dingy little restaurant, owes reparations to the countless nations that France has wronged in the past. Modern democratic governments are by and of their people - when demanding blood money from France, you are demanding blood money from Pierre. Insofar as Pierre has a higher standard of living and should assist others to reach his living status, I believe it is appropriate to demand money with that goal in mind. Insofar as the idea that Pierre, born in 1990 and who has never left his little corner of the country, has some form of ancestral debt to be paid, I believe it is inappropriate.

In other words, I think you are (broadly speaking) right, but for the wrong reasons.

As for making amends = helping, most people would disagree. That’s a dumb assertion.

I don't think most people would disagree, but it's semantics in the end.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Again with the guilt! This is a strawman. Can someone else tap in? I'm done for now.

Pug, if you're really looking for answers, consider removing your moral glasses and just look at what people have had taken from them and what they're asking for. Beyond all the emotion and defensiveness and outrage and morality, people are asking for really reasonable things

[–] [email protected] 0 points 1 year ago

I find it absurd that you say that, considering that I have explicitly stated that I'm not against people asking for 'really reasonable things'.

Insofar as Pierre has a higher standard of living and should assist others to reach his living status, I believe it is appropriate to demand money with that goal in mind. Insofar as the idea that Pierre, born in 1990 and who has never left his little corner of the country, has some form of ancestral debt to be paid, I believe it is inappropriate.

In other words, I think you are (broadly speaking) right, but for the wrong reasons.

You're refusing to examine your own position when it is questioned, conflating opposition with your principle with opposition to your solution, despite the fact that it is the principle being questioned (the passing of guilt down through generations), not the solution (redistribution of wealth).