524
this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2023
524 points (86.9% liked)
World News
39138 readers
3374 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News [email protected]
Politics [email protected]
World Politics [email protected]
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
So a poorly made electric vehicle by one manufacturer means that the entire field is non-viable?
EDIT: Lmao, check out this guy's posts, every single comment is shitting on battery EVs and shilling hydrogen vehicles. I don't know how much you're being paid to shill for the fossil fuel industry, but I hope it's enough.
How many people are shilling for the BEV industry or Tesla? It is the biggest greenwashing scam of our time. Someone has to say something. You have reality reversed. It's the pro-BEV people that are shills.
All BEVs from everyone will have the same issues.
EDIT: Lying to yourself will not change reality. A BEV will never be a low-resource type of vehicles. It is a matter of when, not if, it falls apart as an idea.
Brilliant analysis
Explain to me how a car with a $20,000 battery can ever avoid a repair job of $20,000 once the battery dies? This is a problem that everyone will face.
And in America, the land of SUVs and pick-up trucks, these costs will be even higher.
EDIT: You won't change economics by lying to yourself. BEVs are simply not viable. At least, not anything with a big battery.
This isn't about the battery dying. It's about Tesla failing miserably at building a water resistant enclosure for their batteries, them pretending that it's somehow the customers fault.
It's both about the shittiness of Tesla, and the eventually doom of all BEVs. If you think companies like Ford or VW won't be building shit BEVs too, then I have a bridge to sell to you.
EDIT: Again, no amount of lying to yourself or others will save the BEV. It is doomed and always will be. If anything, you are just delaying real solutions to climate change.
Be honest. Are you paid off or are you just insane?
Joe Biden just announced a huge pro-hydrogen program? Is he paid off or insane?
It's time to ask yourself honestly: Why do you oppose green technology that happens to not be your favored technology? Perhaps you can reach a realization here.
Yes
Basically every left-leaning politician on Earth would have be too, in your mind.
Biden is NOT left lmao
Plenty of governments in Europe are investing in hydrogen.
So? You're correct that the fossil lobby is also anal deep in EU country politicians. Also, like 90% IF EU isn't left either.
Then you have basically no one that actually support your particular position. Except this one guy who is a Fascist. Not exactly great company.
Lmao, even your fake story isn't straight anymore. I fucking hate Musk, there are more EVs than Tesla.
Then stop believing his lies. You still worship the BEV and cannot imagine an alternative. That's the problem here.
I don't believe anything Musk says. Good thing there are other EVs that are good.
Those other BEVs are just other car companies chasing the subsidies. Once you get over Musk's lies, you'll realize that the market is not an organic one. It is just an artificial market created by the government. Most people don't want a BEV.
No, because not every left leaning politician is dumb enough to think hydrogen is a viable option.
There's nearly nobody left on the political left that still oppose hydrogen. Maybe you'll find an occasional weirdo, but that's about it. You're just out of touch here.
Because hydrogen isn't as green as you might think.
Most ways of creating hydrogen involve toxic chemicals that pollute almost as much as ICE cars.
And the green ways of creating it lose about 30% of the energy put into it. Energy that could have been used to ... charge a battery directly.
And there's one way to get to zero emissions. Just like a BEV. The criticism is just a lot of BS from BEV companies.
Neither wind nor solar is all that efficient. Why hasn't anyone on the left come out and vigorous oppose them?
Because that's stupid, and frankly it is just climate change denial at this point. Something you are doing now.
It is quite easy.
A battery like that lasts longer than the car. It may not have done in the past, but it does do so today.
And if it breaks before then, you only need to replace a single cell to fix it.
Afterwards, you can just recycle and reuse those exotic metals used in its construction, so it doesn't require more pollution to create.
Much of that is wishful thinking. All batteries will die, and the repair cost will be insane. Not to mention it all applies to FCEVs and at a much lower cost and lower resource base.
Fundamentally, you can't. The same as how a gas car can't avoid a $5k transmission or engine replacement. Cars being totaled due to their most expensive part failing isn't really a new thing or unexpected. Beaters are sold for scrap literally every day because it's not worth repairing them.
All cars have a limited lifetime. For ICE cars, that's on average around 12 years, and things often start going wrong around ~150k miles. You can get particularly well-maintained cars to last much longer, but most people don't. Classic cars are mostly a hobbyist thing for a reason.
The question isn't "will the battery eventually die", its "will the battery last 15-20 years while still having 60-80% of its initial capacity?"
And based on real-world data, the answer appears to be "yes, unless you have a lemon or really abuse your battery." Lemons are also nothing new.
You can repair ICE cars. Unless you bought some complex luxury car, ICE cars are very cheap to maintain.
FCEVs will have something similar. They will be cheap to build and maintain. They do not have a giant battery to replace.
You? Lmao, nope. Gotta pay big bucks if you want new cars repaired. Pay a couple thousand upfront and then another couple thousand every year for new vehicle information. You can thank John Deere for that shift. I know, your car currently runs. For Americans, there is a certain point in buying a newer one is cheaper than repairing it. There will be a point where everyone is forced to have a shittier car because they are either all like that or you pay the big bucks. What are Americans going to do? Not buy cars, they don't have the freedom to not have one.
It's not one giant battery, but arrays of smaller batteries. At least that has been my experience with them. Battery goes bad and you replace that array. Not 20k but closer to 2k.
That is you, that is how deranged you sound.
A cellphone is not a car. Nor is a personal computer.
A BEV has fundamental problems that cannot be solved. It's worth noting that they are an older idea than combustion cars. It is in many ways, totally obsolete.
Ok I stand corrected, you definitely are deranged or you are literally a paid shill of Exxon, which in this case would be the same thing.
So when Joe Biden announces a huge pro-hydrogen program, is he a paid shill of Exxon?
Honestly, some of you guys are so deluded, it goes beyond projecting. You guys are seriously brainwashed by Musk. Some of you will sell out the entirety of the climate change movement if it means validation by a Fascist.
Lmao, we KNOW he is. American politics have extreme fossil lobbyists attached to them
Then explain the vast number of European politicians also supporting expansion of hydrogen? Are they all part of the fossil fuel lobby?
Yes.
The fossil fuel industry has enormous pockets. And politicians aren't known to understand the technology they are peddling.
"Everyone on the left is brainwashed by the oil companies. But me, supporting a position only held by one Fascist, is definitely not the crazy one here."
Yes? This is not a secret or conspiracy at all. It's called lobbying
The problem is that you have almost no one left on the left that actually supports your position. Not many scientists either.
lol we hate Musk. We dont like Teslas shitty cars. We do like EVs since they keep the air pollution outside of big cities and if used with renewable energies they are the best alternative to fossil fuel car travel we have.
So do FCEVs. There's no reason to oppose them. So don't.
No
The problem with FCEVs right now is cost.
First of all, we already have good electric distribution infrastructure, but don't have an industrially-sized hydrogen distribution infrastructure. It's way easier to install a new charging site than a new hydrogen refueling site. Building hydrogen out will be expensive, unless you're talking about vehicles with a centralized depot, like busses or ferries.
Second, fuel cells aren't really that efficient right now, and neither is electrolysis. Due to losses at each step, 100 miles worth of green hydrogen is way, way more expensive than 100 miles worth of electricity.
With more research, that could change. But for now, there's a reason you don't see many FCEVs.
The same story was said about wind, solar, even BEVs too. They all had to be expensive before they hit mass production.
But the advantage of FCEVs is that they have very low resource requirements. The cost floor is much below that of BEVs. Eventually, they will be as cheap as ICE cars or less, and the fuel will be cheaper than gasoline.
The efficiency argument is hugely exaggerated and is mostly coming from BEV companies. Even if you believe it, you should be aware that photovoltaics are terribly inefficient. But it doesn't matter because solar is made from sand and sunlight is everywhere. Hydrogen has the same idea going for it. Made from water and renewable energy, it too will be extremely cheap.
Funny, cause an combustion car has a lot bigger issues that can not be fixed and need to be addressed right now.
Which shares the same problems with hydrogen cars, btw.
FCEVs don't have the problem of combustion cars. It is the natural follow-up to them.