this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2023
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So many people here either intentionally or not misunderstanding the point...
There's freedom of religion, but not in official governement settings. This is not to infringe on rights, it's just the opposite. Just for your religion you shant get treated differently. This is why you don't get to advertise your religion as a governement employee, nor as a citizen when appealing to the governement. This is exactly the inverse of authorianism, it's a reaction to a state forcing people from a certain religion to wear a distinct mark (star of david) by which they were discrimnated against and eradicated.
Furthermore there should be some norms in place for what can be worn in school. I'm no advocate for uniforms, but dressrules respectful of the institution can be demanded (e.g. not wearing headwear in church or covering ones hair when visiting a mosque)
How is an abaya disrespectful to a school? If anything it's one of the more appropriate kinds of clothing.
France may have banned large crosses from their schools but it is not forbidden afaik to wear necklaces. I did not find an english source, here is a german one with my translation:
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/frankreich-verbot-abaya-schulen-100.html
Allowing kippas and crosses while disallowing a dress that is at most a religious gesture not even a concrete symbol is just weird.
any kind of religion is disrespectful to any education facility since they teach exactly the opposite from one another.
That sentence is so general that it has to be wrong.
But let's assume you meant that "The currently most practiced religions are teaching something that is not aligned with the scientific method and facts we want to educate people on in the public education system".
Even then you are still saying just by being religious you are disrespecting the educational facility. But again let's assume you only meant that showing that your belief in this religion is disrepectful.
I'd argue that a school is still a public place, where minors are forced to be a big part of their waking day, where they should be free to express themselves. That may include challenging religious beliefs but also the teachings in the school, as long as it happens in a respectful way. Challenging ideas and disagreeing is not the same as disrespect.
it doesnt make any sense,religions are about dogmas not evidence. if they are based on science they are not a religion by definition.
ideally it all is. just because we are not smart enough doesnt mean we should entertain stuff that has even LESS validity, like religions.
no child gives a flying bird about "expressing their religion" they are only religious because their parents are forcing them to. no other reason.
so no the right of the parents to express their own religion through their unwilling kids doesnt trump anything about an education syste.
Citing Wikipedia here:
I'd say I could build a belief system around "designated behaviors and practices, morals, beliefs, worldviews, texts, sanctified places, prophecies, ethics, or organizations" that tries to understand the "supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements" by using scientific methods. Where "supernatural, transcendental, and spiritual elements" are just stuff we don't yet understand like for example dark matter.
Try teaching ethics based on only scientific facts then. Try teaching art and music based on scientific fact. Those are disciplines where opinions and feelings have a meaningful impact on the subject at hand.
You do understand that people in schools are not just 6 years old kids right? A big chunk of them are old enough to make decisions about themselves. Calling all of these individuals "unwilling kids" because they might be religious is very belittling.
none of those people sat down and said " i want to become a christian". speaking about this like its a choice is really messed up, children dont have a choice.
I did not sit down to be raised an atheist and yet here I am, raised as one without having had a choice. Parents have the right to raise their children as they see fit, within some parameters of course. And I think that is a good thing, I wouldn't want anyone to force me to raise my kids in a specific way. At a certain age teenagers are able to have their own thoughts though, and there are a lot of people that turn away from the beliefs of their parents. Others stay religious though and I think that is absolutely fine. I might not agree with a lot of what they believe in, but it also is just none of my business.
children being abused with brainwashing is absolutely your business even if you dont understand it.
just because you managed to escape it doesnt mean the average child is able to. look around, they clearly are not.
Being raised religiously is definitely not generally abuse, and I would say only a very small portion of it goes into abusive territory. Which, of course, yes should be everyones business.
I did not escape anything, I am still an atheist. What I am saying is that it's not inherently better to "escape" religion than to keep believing. I would even oppose that framing of religion being something you need to escape.
give one positive.
sorry but you centrist people can really go to absurd places just to be right...
As I said I myself am not religious. It doesn't work for me. But to just flat out deny that religion has benefits to people is blatantly dismissive of the things that make a lot of people happy.
If we are going to get down to namecalling here you go: You libs can really go to absurd places just to prove that pure logic and rationality will make us prosper.
Yeah I regret this topic being made into a value weighting thing. I hate the hypocrisy in the current discussion. Although I also hate how signalling religosity somehow finds a way.
My point is that the reason behind the policy is pretty solid. The state should be blind to my religion and no-one should get preferrential/or malign treatment because of it.
Sure, all should be banned
Definitly agreed!
I guess that's where opinions just differ, and honestly my point of view isn't really relevant here as I am not french and I have a very limited knowledge of their culture in this regard.