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China lab suspected of Covid leak stripped of US funding for violating biosafety rules
(www.telegraph.co.uk)
this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2023
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No self-respecting scientist concluded that either a natural origin or a lab leak were the definitive cause of the pandemic. This is clear if you actually read scientific literature. It’s why phrases akin to “the most supported hypothesis is X” or “the Y theory is unlikely without more supporting evidence” are used. Both hypotheses were and are still possible explanations.
It’s people who get their scientific info from sources like the Telegraph that keep jumping to conclusions. Or people who don’t understand what a section leader at the NIH does, how research grants work, or what gain of function research is. You know, like yourself.
Yeah, it was just coincidence that the exact same strain evolved in the wild and transferred to humans in the same place at the same time!
The original grant was to the EcoHealth Alliance, which then subcontracted the Wuhan institute to collect wild samples from bats. In other words, the whole point of the research was to try and catalogue viruses that existed in the wild with pandemic potential.
It’s not coincidence that lab samples there or in other facilities exist that are close in sequence to viruses later identified in humans. That was, in fact, the goddamn point of surveying bat coronaviruses: to identify those with spillover potential. And it’s absolutely possible one of these collected samples was mishandled and leaked from the lab. After all, lab leaked viral outbreaks happen almost every other year, and there were already safety concerns at this particular site published long before the pandemic.
But what you and every other mouthbreathing idiot is trying to say is that Fauci, a director of the NIAID at the time, personally directed gain of function research to engineer new viruses to infect humans and then that virus escaped. Which, speaking as a molecular biologist myself, is laughably backwards.
It seems like you've read enough to get halfway there.
You should go back and read the source documents and go over what ecohealth alliance were actually doing, and where they were doing it. The funding proposals were extremely detailed, right down to carrying out gain of function research to aerosolise the corona viruses harvested from bats.
It is almost impossible to immunise bats using droplet transmission and this is the source of the global fuckup.
At some stage during this process, the modified pathogen from very early stages of developing a corona vaccine FOR BATS (the stated goal of the funding request) it somehow got out of one of the labs involved. (Malice or stupidity, we'll never know)
At that stage it would still be fair to call the original escaped variant a VIRUS because it had not yet reached the development stage of being attenuated sufficiently to be called a vaccine, but it was a long way from a wild type variant.
This lines up with early sequencing of the virus that is widely documented. Those with any scientific integrity have acknowledged from day 1 that there were portions of the sequence that can not occur without human intervention.
In short, this was all being done with US funding in labs with woefully inadequate safety protocols.
So long as we are prepared to accept the risk/reward profile of gain of function research being carried out anywhere in the world, the risk of a similar global pandemic will never go away.
Grant Project Number: 2R01AI110964-06
“Aim 1. Characterize the diversity and distribution of high spillover-risk SARSr-CoVs in bats in southern China. We will use phylogeographic and viral discovery curve analyses to target additional bat sample collection and molecular CoV screening to fill in gaps in our previous sampling and fully characterize natural SARSr-CoV diversity in southern China. We will sequence receptor binding domains (spike proteins) to identify viruses with the highest potential for spillover which we will include in our experimental investigations (Aim 3). Aim 2. Community, and clinic-based syndromic, surveillance to capture SARSr-CoV spillover, routes of exposure and potential public health consequences. We will conduct biological-behavioral surveillance in high-risk populations, with known bat contact, in community and clinical settings to 1) identify risk factors for serological and PCR evidence of bat SARSr-CoVs; & 2) assess possible health effects of SARSr-CoVs infection in people. We will analyze bat-CoV serology against human-wildlife contact and exposure data to quantify risk factors and health impacts of SARSr-CoV spillover. Aim 3. In vitro and in vivo characterization of SARSr-CoV spillover risk, coupled with spatial and phylogenetic analyses to identify the regions and viruses of public health concern. We will use S protein sequence data, infectious clone technology, in vitro and in vivo infection experiments and analysis of receptor binding to test the hypothesis that % divergence thresholds in S protein sequences predict spillover potential.”
Color me shocked, but that’s the funding proposal and there’s nothing in there even approaching whatever you’re talking about. But hey, maybe you’re referring to the rejected DARPA grant proposal leaked by DRASTIC:
“THE PROPOSAL PLANNED TO INTRODUCE “KEY RBD RESIDUES” INTO LOW RISK STRAINS TO TEST PATHOGENICITY IN HUMAN AIRWAY-CELLS”
Wowie, looks like we have a hit! Rather than reading their spin though, I went and found the REJECTED grant proposal:
“We will sequence spike proteins, reverse engineer them to conduct binding assays, and insert them into bat SARSr-CoV backbones (these use bat-SARSr-CoV backbones, not SARS-CoV, and are exempt from dual-use and gain or function concerns)”
If you’re not aware, these backbones are common lab vectors which aren’t pathogenic themselves, made from different viruses. Their sequences are significantly different than either SARS-CoV or SARS-CoV-2. So, chimeric receptor/backbone pairs are used to assess viral entry into humanized cells more so than virulence. You may disagree with whether or not that’s still too dangerous of a method, but it’s a moot point here because 1. The backbones proposed here are completely different than COVID, so it can’t be the same viral agent and 2. This is a REJECTED PROPOSAL. None of this was actually done and it’s fantasy to pretend it is.
Next claim: aerosolized droplet for vaccines:
“We will complement [broad scale immune boosting with bat interferon] by coupling agonist treatments with SARSr-CoV recombinant spike proteins to boost pre-existing adaptive immune response in adult bats… we will incorporate [recombinant spike proteins] into nano particles or raccoon pox virus vectors for delivery to bats”
They’re not proposing aerosolizing whole droplets with competent SARS-CoV in them you moron, they’re basically saying “hey, you know those nasal sprays we use for the flu every year? Let’s give that to bats”.
Ooh, my favorite. No scientist with integrity says that the genome wasn’t manipulated.
You’re gonna have to tell that to the couple hundred scientists who have been studying this for a while:
“There is no logical reason why an engineered virus would utilize such a suboptimal furin cleavage site, which would entail such an un- usual and needlessly complex feat of genetic engineering. The only previous studies of artificial insertion of a furin cleavage site at the S1/S2 boundary in the SARS-CoV spike protein uti- lized an optimal ‘‘RRSRR’’ sequence in pseudotype systems (Belouzard et al., 2009; Follis et al., 2006). Further, there is no ev- idence of prior research at the WIV involving the artificial insertion of complete furin cleavage sites into coronaviruses.”
There really isn’t any evidence of manipulation at all. The backbone isn’t a standard lab construct. The cleavage site could have arisen from recombination. In the spirit of good science, I would never rule anything out, but the evidence very much supports a natural origin. Lab leak from a sample? Maybe, but that’s different than genetic engineering. For that you need stronger evidence. The strongest bit of evidence we have is the stonewalling from WIV and China, which is certainly suspicious. But, it’s unfortunately incidental and that isn’t good enough to jump to conclusions.
Try actually reading the text of these proposals before reading someone else’s spin on it.
I am somehow still surprised at how many of my intelligent, educated healthcare coworkers believe in the purposeful bio weapon theory despite there being no evidence of human-made genetic manipulation. We can analyze whole genomes now, there’s no need to make shit up.
Yeah, it’s pretty sad. But I have fun digging into the sources for the misinformation, so there’s that.
If you were secure in your beliefs, you could use logic, science, or evidence.
You use insults. I question, you insult. Who is wrong?
Funny, you haven’t “questioned” anything. You’ve just regurgitated your same tired disproven talking points. Then you act like your viewpoint deserves respect. It doesn’t. No sources, no evidence, no respect.
If you’d like my sources, here you go. Let me know when you find the spot that says “I, Fauci, personally oversaw the development of a virus that looks absurdly natural in origin.”
The original grant proposal for EcoHealth Alliance: https://reporter.nih.gov/project-details/9819304
Every relevant follow up study produced under that grant proposal:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6171170/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7094983/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6178078/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7097006/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7148670/
I haven't posted any evidence because I've only posted reservations about the narrative. You have chosen to attack me personally and you FINALLY posted several studies that do not say anything about containment, lab procedure, the contents of the lab, or anything else that might assuage my doubts. What they do prove is that gain of function research was being performed on SARS in the area where the pandemic first started. You accuse me of being irrational when you're losing your god damned mind at the very idea that the lab could be the source of the pandemic.
Quite a fast reader, aren’t you?
Please cite the spot in those documents that “prove gain of function research was being performed on SARS in the area the pandemic first started”
Those documents you posted are ancillary to the actual experimentation. Here's some more details for you.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/21055989-understanding-risk-bat-coronavirus-emergence-grant-notice https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1006698
https://theintercept.com/2021/09/09/covid-origins-gain-of-function-research/
The real question is still, "Why did you immediately jump to personal attacks, infodumping irrelevant studies, and why are you vehemently defending this lab as if you're the one who caused the leak?
Oh boy, so this is where you stumbled. I should have known it would be The Intercept article.
The documents are ancillary, huh? You cited the exact same grant proposal I sent you. So is it ancillary or not?
Here are some really critical points I’m willing to bet you misunderstood:
“We will construct chimeric SARSr-CoVs using WIV1 backbone and the S genes of selected SARSr-CoV strains and assess capacity to infect hACE2, bACE2, and cACE2 Vero cells…”
The WIV1 backbone is NOT the backbone found in SARS-CoV-2. It’s from a completely different human-infectious coronavirus strain. Furthermore, the spike proteins they’re studying would be gathered from bat coronaviruses found in the wild. So, this method is NOT considered GoF research by the NIH nor is it even potentially possible it resulted in the pandemic. They proposed assessing transmissibility by using an already known infectious backbone and an uncharacterized spike protein, not engineering a more deadly virus. WIV1 is already infectious in humans. The spike proteins gathered are the exact same sequences as those already present in the wild. You may still have reservations about this approach, but I’d argue it’s actually safer for studying viruses in this way because you use what’s known as a Bacterial Artificial Chromosome (BAC) to infect the cells rather than live virus. Meaning, no storage, handling, or serial passaging of viral samples is required past the initial isolation and the plaque assessments.
You may argue that any viral research which can result in genetic change should be classified unilaterally as GoF, and is too dangerous to be performed, much less at labs we don’t directly regulate. I would disagree on those points, but you’d join a rich debate on the subject which The Intercept article actually points out as well. But the fact remains that none of the above studies were designed to engineer more deadly pathogens for humans, and is ultimately a red herring for the SARS-CoV-2 debate. We know the backbone sequences and they do not match, so you and The Intercept article are barking up the wrong tree.
The same is true for the PLOS study you cited. Same viral backbone, same process. It’s there to assess transmissibility of a naturally occurring virus and try to predict future pandemic potential (of the original SARS-CoV, in their case), not to engineer more effective viruses. Same misunderstanding on its classification as GoF research, too. Even in the Intercept article you cite it talks about the results of other studies as technically “loss of function” in relation to some strains, which is true. But again, all of this is a red herring. SARS-CoV-2 did NOT use the backbone referenced here, and thus this study did not result in a genetically engineered virus that caused the pandemic.
As for citations, I’d point you to this snippet from a review article in Cell:
A near identical nucleotide sequence is found in the spike gene of the bat coro- navirus HKU9-1 (Gallaher, 2020), and both SARS-CoV-2 and HKU9-1 contain short palindromic sequences immediately up- stream of this sequence that are indicative of natural recombina- tion break-points via template switching (Gallaher, 2020). Hence, simple evolutionary mechanisms can readily explain the evolu- tion of an out-of-frame insertion of a furin cleavage site in SARS-CoV-2 (Figure 2).
You keep insisting that I think a lab leak is impossible, when I’ve made it very clear that a lab leak is still a possibility. There were safety concerns at Wuhan long before this whole thing. But a “lab leak” of a stored sample is completely different than “Fauci paid incompetent Chinese labs to engineer deadly pathogens”, and I’ve never seen evidence for the latter. Yet you’ve stated that sentiment here in the comment section, so somehow that unsubstantiated belief lives on. Until our pool of evidence changes, the most likely scenario is a zoonosis from a natural reservoir, or a lab leak from a gathered or cultured sample.
I’m curious why you seem so insistent that the evidence is being hidden and that everyone is silencing you. You come in here with unsubstantiated accusations, and then get angry when people call you out for it. Had you started with sources for your claims, I would have been happy to engage with you on that level. Acting like an ass in any forum isn’t going to get you far. Stop playing the victim.
I've yet to get angry or say that I've been silenced. I don't need a wall of text to tell you that you're full of shit and you've exceeded your allotment of wasting my time.
sigh I know you've probably either already made up your mind or you're not arguing in good faith, so I'm not gonna engage any further except to say that it's entirely possible for a virologist to do research on zoonotic viruses. Just because it's a bat virus doesn't mean it stays a bat virus.
Also, there are probably billions if not trillions or quadrillions of individual COVID viruses out there. Each time a new one's made, there's a chance for it to mutate into something else. It's totally possible for a virus to evolve similar features in separate environments. I believe the term, "convergent evolution" applies here, and you can find examples larger than viruses in plants and animals, where even separate species can sometimes evolve the same features independently from one another. Carcinisation is an extreme example of this.
Just so you know, not only them are reading your response. I appreciate your response.
And as someone that isn't working in the field, I have to admit that it is very illogical that they would conduct gain-of-function research on coronaviruses in a country previously hit by a coronavirus outbreak while violating safety standards. Obviously that's hindsight but shouldn't this be very obviously a bad idea? It's not like the existence of a virus like COVID-19/sarscov-2 was completely unexpected.
I mean, you'd do the research where you would be finding the wild zoonotic pathogens you want to study. So the location makes perfect sense.
The biosafety issues are more just a long-standing problem with how science is done in China in general, which is overall bad.
So you admit that China has lax protocols, and that the US and China were studying the same virus that became a problem later, but you offer me nothing but insults for wondering if that same virus leaked from that same poor quality lab.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Oh, I guess since it was "illogical" there is no way that could be the origin.
I meant what actually happened is illogical to me. So I'm simply a bit confused and understand that there might be some nuance that I'm missing.
And I think an accidental leak is absolutely possible, it's only that a conscious effort by China and the USA is unrealistic.
Of course virologists study viruses, and sloppy government labs in backwater parts of authoritarian countries have lax safety protocols. You haven't contradicted me one time. You've just thrown up strawmen and irrelevant arguments.
That doesn't prove shit. You understand that nothing you say there is contributing to your argument, right?
You understand that I'm just casting doubt on the official narrative and the people arguing are the ones vested in their narrative, right?
I question narratives and I'm met by insults. If the people responding had any evidence or were secure in their narrative they wouldn't need to resort to insults first.
The gain of function research on the same wild virus being done in conjunction with Germany?
Do you know any of the actual details of the project, where they were collecting wild bats infected with the proto version of Covid and were splitting up different components of the research to different labs?
The Wuhan group were researching the viral backbone and Germany the viral antigens.
The same sort of collaboration done on many other potentially concerning natural vector diseases.
You're so invested in your narrative.
You mean I've actually read the scientific data and evidence going back years before the pandemic? The research they were doing there and in Germany was well known and openly available. Published papers and all.
You haven't read anything that proves COVID-19 wasn't a lab leak, and everything you've read filtered through the people responsible. But you are invested in convincing me it wasn't.
How do you think scientific publications work?
They don't go through the high council of evil science-lords first.
Now I want to be invited to an evil science-lord convention.
Bonus points if it is held in an underground volcanic lair.
Have you seen any scientific publications posted to these comments that prove the pandimic didn't result from a lab leak? I haven't.
What possible evidence would there be to “prove” this negative? Maybe if we happened to find the exact source animal to test? Since that is unlikely, all we have to go is the genome of the virus compared to similar viruses in the wild and similar viruses in published research. And that wouldn’t be proof enough for you.
You don't need to prove or disprove a negative. You simply must allow for it to be a possibility unless evidence comes forth which proves that the doubts are unfounded. For instance, if patient zero was found and they had no contact with the lab, if a wild source of COVID-19 with the same genetic structure was found, or if it was proven than none of the samples in the lab could be the source of the infection.
The problem here is that I opened up the possibility by asking the question, and hateful, partial, non-scientific minds decided to dogpile me for threatening their beliefs and faith in authority.
There are a ton now, which you already replied to. If only you'd post your own now.
My own what? I am posting my own doubts about the story. Do I need evidence to distrust two governments with a history of experimenting on their populations?
The very scientist who first suggested that Covid was man-made changed his mind after doing further research and discovering that the components he thought were man-made were actually found in other wild Sars viruses.
You're the one who refuses to listen to actual evidence beyond the initial claims you first heard.
The only evidence you've presented is the statement that Germany was involved.
If so, you're two of a kind.
I've yet to be given one solid reason to question my questioning of the official narrative. The other guy only posted character attacks and appeals to questionable authorities.
Do you just... like... look in a mirror, then post random comments attacking people for your own failings or something? Cause that's what seems to be happening.
Where did you see me attack anybody? You should be able to quote me. What seems to be happening from my perspective is a bunch of people with poor reading comprehension or no integrity attacking me for doubting the official narrative.
Have they found an animal with a strain related to the human variant? Isn’t that the main evidence they expect to be able to find to help prove it actually had a path from animal to human?
If so, I haven't seen it. As far as I can tell, investigating the narrative is off limits. You can see how every person who has responded to my questioning has attacked me on a personal level.
I don't know if those attacking you are right or wrong in the narrative they believe, but they're definitely jumping to conclusions about people who choose to believe in the possibility of a lab leak and subsequent coverup. It seems they think all of us to be conspiracy theory nutjobs with alt-right ideologies.
Personally, I started believing the lab leak stuff may be legit when I watch johnny harris's video. I figured Johnny Harris was giving a decent take on the whole situation. He had numerous reasons for coming to the conclusions he did, and it all seems decently reasonable.
But recently it's come to my attention that maybe Harris isn't the most reliable source. While I can't recall the details atm, I have read and watched stuff about Harris that does call into question his biases. At the same time, I don’t believe anyone has said anything against his factual accuracy. But the slant of a presentation and possibly excluded information can do quite a bit for undermining a narrative if you really want to do that. So, its hard to say if you should believe his story about the lab leak.
But, It’s not like I’m gonna do anything useful with my opinion on the topic…. So I’m not going to waste time seriously investing in researching the topic.
Edit: Reworded, and added context that I completely left out the first time around.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
I made a couple of jumps in thought that I did not originally put into that comment. It's been updated to, hopefully, be much clearer.
So wild that people are reacting so violently to mere questioning. Makes me wonder if these comments are being astroturfed by vested parties.
I agree its suspicious, but god damn this is just not the site for this shit. It implicates both the CCP, and Dr Fauci.