this post was submitted on 19 Sep 2023
106 points (91.4% liked)
Programming
17670 readers
216 users here now
Welcome to the main community in programming.dev! Feel free to post anything relating to programming here!
Cross posting is strongly encouraged in the instance. If you feel your post or another person's post makes sense in another community cross post into it.
Hope you enjoy the instance!
Rules
Rules
- Follow the programming.dev instance rules
- Keep content related to programming in some way
- If you're posting long videos try to add in some form of tldr for those who don't want to watch videos
Wormhole
Follow the wormhole through a path of communities [email protected]
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
When someone asks what you were paid or what your salary expectations are, ask them what the budget is for the role. They have one. They will not want to tell you, and you shouldn’t tell them your expectations
So, what happens then?
They offer someone else the job
Yeah, exactly. People upvoted this take that won't work for 99.9999% of people lol
Negotiating hard works fantastically well for people who work in information technology.
It doesn't unless you're part of the absolute minority even in IT. You need to be really qualified for this.
I also again want to emphasize that not giving your expectation is not the same as negotiating hard.
Your run off the mill network guy or admin will not have success with this.
Source: Work in IT and manage people
I would argue that experienced quality - or even serviceable - IT is the absolute minority, to begin with.
There are organizations that aren't one bad day in IT away from starting a company-ending death spiral, but they're not typical.
Many CEOs and HR professionals underestimate that risk, but that underestimation is a self-correcting problem over time.
IT professionals may lose the current opportunity by negotiating, but their next opportunity isn't (statistically) far in the future.
As a bonus, employers who are averse to having IT employees negotiate tend to be lousy employers
It is, but the point still stands that you need to be extremely sought after to make it work WITHIN IT.
If you're applying for a CISO position and have 20 yrs experience it might work. That's the level we're talking about.
If you're a sysadmin and are applying for management of 50 windows clients you'll be out the door with that kind of negotiation.
In my opinion the vast majority of interviewers will not take shit like that unless you're extremely qualified and money probably wouldn't be an issue to begin with.
I've conducted interviews in multiple countries in several continents.
If it works for you keep going of course. I just don't see that to be realistic or viable advice for most people reading here.
Fair point. My experience is with cloud admins. With so much going to the cloud, there's so much unmet demand for cloud administration.
Even so, most Windows sysadmins I've met have been able to land cloud jobs after a few attempts - and they tend to be great at it. The professional principles of a good senior sysadmins translate well to the new cloud ~~bullshit~~ stuff.
Then you dodged a bullet
It’s a negotiation. Unless you have a lot of knowledge about the industry you’re working in and what market salaries are, you’re at a disadvantage. You don’t have to say a number. They do - they’re offering you a job. If they refuse to offer you the job until you tell them your salary desire, they are trying to low ball you and you likely don’t want to work there.
I have never been an interviewer or interviewee where you are not supposed to give a number.
Of course they try to low ball you. You counter act by giving a number that allows you to haggle. That is how negotiation works.
Supposed to? According to who? There is no law saying you have to give a number. They want you to give a number. That doesn’t necessarily make it a requirement.
I already answered that in my other posts.
I am the interviewer, I ask the questions. I always ask that question because it is required information for me within the hiring process. I need to make sure your expectation is in my budget.
I don't need to make the process unnecessary complicated by engaging in you not telling me.
If you won't tell me I'll either give you the minimum or ask you to leave because I really don't want to deal with people that make things unnecessarily complicated
Why not be pushy? Why not be willing to walk away? Everyone’s situation differs but a server tech is not going to be lacking for work opportunities. If it’s calculated individually, you say “ok what would it be in my case?”
If they say “it depends on what you’re paid now” that’s a HUGE red flag and you should walk
I mean, if an employer pulls an offer because you asked for the range then you dodged a bullet. As I said and as you said, everyone’s situation is different but - I’m the context of OP’s post they seem to have had the option to negotiate.
this is a conversation you usually have before the technical stuff. you’re making sure your ideal pay and their band is in sync.
being pushy early in the process is terrible advice.
Yeah, in my case, the decision to hire me had been made, but HR would of course onboard me. I got kind of blindsided as the person who asked me wasn't the person who would be making the decision, she was basically a proxy. I asked what the range was and I got some generic "it depends".... I checked most of the boxes for skills but I don't have a degree and for some reason that's off-putting to large companies. Anyways yeah it didn't feel right to be pushy so early
even then, a position may not be for a certain level so they’re can be a fairly wide band of pay depending on how the interview goes.
i think most folks vastly overthink it. just ask for the money you want to make. either it’s in the ballpark or it’s not. all this “don’t say a number first” stuff is bullshit imo.
you definitely do want to know if your desired pay matches their range though. that’s very important.
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT86J7mpN/
That was basically how the meeting went lol
The NDA bit got me ngl
Truth is this is an antagonistic negotiation oftentimes. You want to be paid more, they want to pay you as little as possible. There’s unfortunately no playbook, just advice and experience.
FWIW if they were that evasive I’d just say “look I’m not going to name an initial number, I’d like you to name a range.” But I’m at a somewhat senior level so I have a different experience than others might
I usually follow it up with a salary range and they end up matching the lower bound.
A range gives you flexibility. I hope for the high end, sure, but I know they'll go for the low end so I throw a range where I'd be happy with the low.
Since it's a range, it's easy to say No way I'd work for you for less than [low end].
If you give a fixed value they'll low ball it and you'll generally end up in.between theirs and yours, so you'll have to aim high.
Exactly. That's why you say a specific number, which you hope you'll get (which is a high end of your range), but in your mind be prepared to accept a lower offer (which is a low end of your range). If you say a range it's like if you said just the low end of the range, the high end doesn't matter anymore to the recruiter. That's at least what I've been doing recently and it usually works well.