Image Transcription:
An 8-panel Phoebe Teaching Joey meme.
The first panel is Phoebe from Friends saying "Russia".
The second panel is Joey from the same show replying with "Russia".
The third panel is Phoebe saying "has invaded".
The fourth panel is Joey repeating back "has invaded".
The fifth panel is Phoebe saying "Ukraine".
The sixth panel is Joey repeating back "Ukraine".
The seventh panel is Phoebe saying the completed phrase "Russia has invaded Ukraine".
The final panel shows Joey proudly proclaiming "NATO just started a proxy war".
The political spectrum isn't really a line. Please don't imply leftists and tankies are on the same team
You can ignore everything I'm about to write. I'm just thinking through this in written form.
Here goes: it's a bit confusing for me. Tankies call themselves leftists. In fact, they call us "pro-capitalists" because we don't believe in authoritarianism.
And it feels weird to me to be in one of two groups both saying, "you're not REAL anti-capitalists" at each other.
So here goes:
So yes, I must acknowledge that a group of pro-authoritarians can call themselves leftists without being leftists.
... it still feels weird though. Because if you view it from their perspective, they are leftists. And we are capitalists' enablers.
Wait! I think I see it. Their embrace of violent regimes and violent tactics destroys working class unity and alienates non-violent, compassionate anti-capitalists. They actively choose Stalin over Trotsky and Trotsky over Kerensky, and (like they did with Marguerit Duras) drive anyone out of the movement who won't support that choice.
They are anti-solidarity. And you cannot be a leftist and be anti-solidarity.
Im a radical leftist. Specifically an anarchist.
I was arguing with tankies the other day, because I defined Tankie as an authoritarian Communists. In an effort to differentiate between communists I would work with as an anarchist.
Many people (mostly hailing from hexbear )really didn't like it. Cue endless whataboutism and people calling me a lib. Btw according to some hexbear folx. Its not imperialism when the USSR invaded Afghanistan, but it is when the US did it later. Lol.
I too want to exclude tankies from leftism. For many reasons. But the truth is that communism even authoritarian communism is leftist.
We dont need to "no true scotmen" leftism. There are problematic elements that we need to recognize and deal with in a way that is not simply saying "we are not them." Its much healthier and factually correct simply to say that state communism Trends towards a police state aka towards authoritarianism. And I dont support that.
Just my 2 cents.
Fair enough.
🤣
Like I said, I don't think the political spectrum is just 1 line. I think there's an X and a Y axis at the very least
Yeah, I think tankies and anarcho socialist types want wildly different things only that there's a not insignificant amount of overlap in how they're both looking to achieve it.
For the record, I think capitalism is a failed system (well, for anyone other than the billionaire class) but while I and a tankie might agree on certain things it is for different reasons. Cue the Gustavo Fring meme
Capitalism is, at it's core, any system where d(Power) / dt = k (Power) - a + b (random(t)) where power is your ability to impact or influence the world or not be influenced by it unduely.
Any one who has a/k or less power has it systematically taken from them and assigned to those with the most.
Power can be money or political favour with the party. Window dressing and semantic games don't reallly matter. Fascism is the exercise of trying to set b to 0.
Tankies are capitalists.
The left is the exercise of trying to make k negative.
Buddy I enjoyed differential equations as much as the next guy, but differential formulae are not a great way to communicate any concepts in a text forum, not even concepts that are modeled by differential equations.
Wtf is this equation
Fucking lol man I love this site sometimes.
The only good thing about leftists is that they're this ridiculous about everything.
In what way are the states they worship remotely socialist, communist, or anarchist? The means of production are controlled by a small elite who increase their share of control over the means of prodiction by leveraging this control. The only thing that distinguishes the economic stratification of the CCP or the late soviet union from capitalist states is semantic word games.
It's the same thing as a market based oligopoly.
There have been left wing states, and left wing projects within right wing states, but worshipping putin or winnie the pooh ain't it.
I'm here to laugh at ridiculous leftists dunking on ridiculous leftists, not to debate the finer points of tankie theory.
I don't take anyone who self-identifies as a leftist seriously.
You know, i think that's your only flaw. You're an intelligent, reasoned individual with a blind spot, in this self identifying dumbasses opinion. I wonder how your came to dismiss that school of thought specifically? Surely there are as many neoliberal frothers as tankies? Would you mind explaining why?
You might consider me a neoliberal "frother", though I don't understand the term.
I believe in evidence-based best practice, in both policy and in life.
If you'd like to get into the weeds on this, I'd be happy to, as you seem quite pleasant. Note that I specifically used the term "ridiculous leftists" because I do in fact have friends I think are just wrong, but not ridiculous.
I don't. I (full disclosure) looked through your history in order to find some hypocrisy or froth and failed. Frankly, your comments are good, to my initial chagrin.
For 'frothers' There are a few frother types but i think the kind that disturbs me the most are the ones ive seen who conflate critisism of the us dem party as republican operatives at best and traitorous at worst. Usually the frother's "arguments" boil down to adhominem and derision rather than reason, which looks to me as ridiculous as the orange mafia frothers.
As someone who used to donate monthly to the DNC and who is coming to terms with the corruption and ratfucking i simply can't abide, it's difficult to hold a conversation with like minded leftists who are searching for a new answer, a new way of describing what is happening to us, because at least for me, the answers i have heard in my 45 years in this earth just don't make sense anymore.
So that's me, and I'm serious when i ask you why you've come to feel that no leftie should be taken seriously.
As difficult as it is to convey through the Internet, i really am just curious to hear your thought process because you write well, that i might consider your position and maybe if im lucky, add nuance to mine.
Maybe we both will? Or maybe you'll think im the one with toothpaste face
First let's define some terms: I define "leftist" as "communist." That's how they define themselves as well. "Tankies" are a separate breed, in that they specifically idealize the Soviet Union and other authoritarian "communist" states. I am personally of the opinion that the term "socialist" is meaningless in online discourse, as few people mean it the way it was originally used - workers owning companies (which I strongly disagree with, for clarity - though I support things like mandatory profit-sharing)
Not everyone who is left of me is a Communist, though I obviously have disagreements with all of them - but then, I joke with people IRL that "regardless of your political views, if we talk long enough we'll find something I believe that will piss you off so we probably just shouldn't get into it."
As for me, my journey was largely begun through being raised in a staunchly pro-union household and working on various political campaigns (my aunt is a politician). I am very pro-union, very pro-labor, very pro-individual/pro-freedom (we'll circle back on this because this is also a Republican claim) and also very pro-market.
I'm willing to bet (though correct me if I am wrong), that it is my pro-market stance you most likely disagree with (of what is listed). I am pro-market because markets are demonstrably the most efficient way to allocate goods. I support evidence-based policy that has real impacts.
For instance, I am against rent control, because I 100% believe that rent controls, passed in an environment of massive supply shortages of housing, exacerbate the problem by limiting incentives for new housing construction. Data supports this. I also believe that any new housing at any price point increases aggregate supply and lowers pricing (though there are "tipping points" in supply that just be reached). The right way out of the housing crisis is therefore, in my view, to end single-family zoning and disincentivize single-family home ownership through higher taxes.
However, markets have limits to their efficacy, because people like to bend rules in their favor as just a matter of course. The government exists to address these externalities. This is why I support a public health option or even single-payer - I've done the math and such options save both employers and employees money. I also support dramatically increasing the number of residencies allowed, contrary to the AMA, because artificially limiting residencies restricts the supply of doctors. This organization knows this and purposely limits our supply of doctors so they make more money. Our health care system is riddled with such externalities, which single-payer or public options do a lot to address.
Rather than refine the system to address externalities, leftists (as I've defined them) want to burn the system to the ground and start afresh. I believe this will not only result in poorer outcomes, it will also result in a catastrophic and obscene loss of life. It will also implement a system that denies personal autonomy and freedom, as I see it (told you we'd circle back!)
I am a bit of an absolutist radical when it comes to freedom. I believe government can only ethically exist at the consent of the governed - so tankies are right out. I believe in free movement of people, trade as free as is geopolitically feasible, and that capital investment allows potential business owners to make dreams come true that otherwise would not. I accept limits of freedom, because we do live in a society, but I believe we often aim toward the society over the individual's actual best interest. I am deeply morally opposed to vengeance-based systems of justice and am generally a prison abolitionist. For this reason, I have the deeply unpopular belief that the 13th amendment's exception for slavery is a good thing and (paid at minimum wage) compulsory labor is better than prison for most criminals.
This got a bit longer than I intended, but it helps form the mindset from which my views come. Happy to answer any questions or hear your takes.
Edit: I am interested in your thoughts process as well.
And here is where my problem with marxism (ive only read the commie manifesto and das kapital pt 1) im just a baby not yet prepared to speak knowledgeably on theory) because while he foresaw difficulty in transition as you do, he never really came up with an answer on how it could ever be possible.
And i agree that a state-controlled communism would be doomed to fail and it's something I'm against. At this point however within capitalism the markets aren't free, they are controlled by very few hands which marxists claim was bound to and will always happen. As you said, humans will always find a way to bend the rules.
This is where i believe capitalism has its main problem, since as a natural consequence of capital congealing around fewer people, and capital being a force of corruption, no market within a capitalist system can remain free. It requires increasing regulation and interference, destroying the concept of a true free market anyway.
What galls me is i can't see a way forward either. As a pipe dream i could see some kind of perfectly implemented UBI and socialized healthcare being a peaceful way forward. Since providing for basic needs would give the average person more leverage in how they were treated at work, it could make work more democratic and fulfilling, eliminate useless jobs, the need for minimum wage and even union membership.
could.
But really, the problems hypothetical and definite are already problems we have now, and the capitalists don't seem to have an answer for them either. This is why I'm looking leftward, because at least it describes capitalism as a natural progression rooted in history and a consequence of how humanity has progressed rather than believing capitalism as an endpoint, the best system we could ever achieve.
Mind you it's only those faithful believers i take issue with, not folks who simply defend the things it does right.
Put simply because it's a simplistic view, i now believe capitalism (specifically private ownership of production's means) will always lead us to where we are today. a natural consequence of capitalism that it consolidates in few hands, meaning either (at best) heavily regulated markets preventing this with lots of workers protections (essentially democratic socialism) or government controlled capitalism like China, or what we have now, in the States, an oligarchy.
I talked a long time but i don't have a closer. Edit: should have said thanks for the chat.
I think our principal disagreement comes down to whether or not we believe governments are capable of addressing externalities as they pop up. I believe they can, but I also recognize the frustration born of a system in which roughly half of the country not only doesn't want to address those externalities, they see addressing them as some form of "cultural capitulation."
I'd highly recommend the book "Why We're Polarized" as it delves heavily into that concept, but ultimately what we care about are solutions, not it's origin, and I agree those solutions are difficult to conceptualize in any short term timeframe.
I would dispute that the US is an oligarchy, or even that certain wealthy groups have as dramatic and impact on government as is "known" by the internet writ large. My experience as a lobbyist and campaign worker, as well as my experience with Fortune 5-100 companies, strongly disagrees with that notion
Rather, I'd argue that we are crippled by intense tribalism within relatively small demographic areas, which is what makes this such a tough nut to crack. For instance, the "military industrial complex" doesn't so much buy representatives as those representatives represent constituencies that exist in town/cities where the MIC has monopsony (primary hiring ability) and thus vote in lockstep with increasing budgets because it means more jobs.
Americans, almost definitionally, are uncomfortable with the idea of being inconvenienced for long-term gain, which i see as a significant hurdle. This is a bit personal to me, as I am clearly pro-government existing, and my town straight up disincorporated over a <$20/year tax increase per household, where the money was slated to go toward schools.
Fortunately, we're still in that school district and they eventually secured funding, but my town is now missing growth opportunities and essential services as a result.
Like I said, tough nuts to crack.
You're really just making right wing reactionaries look even stupider. So I guess you fit in.
I do also enjoy making right wing reactionaries look dumb